Driving Standards.

[Rudernst]

going back to Marcuses piece in Autosport, I can see his point
as he is right

yellow flags
In Historic Formula Ford, if You so much as lift under yellows in HFF You get passed, at least by some drivers
I have been passed under double waved yellows and SC board out

I have sat in protest proceedings at HSCC meetings where in car footage was examined and the overtake under yellows clearly established
yet with no action taken

Zandvoort Historic GP is different btw, You disregard a yellow, you will hear about it, even if its a friendly tap on your shoulder

what Marcus describes at Cadwell will lead to more safety cars,
because what marshall will venture out on the track if he cant rely on the intelligence of the competitors ?
what CoC will have marshalls near the track with no SC if he does not trust the competitors ?

also, there is not a lot of anticipative thinking among drivers
what I mean:
if there is a big pile up during the start, You can bank on a red flag whithin the next 30 seconds, yet some drivers are completely surprised by it
if there is a stranded car near the circuit, at the very least, there will be yellows next time round, if not not more
yet some manage to overlook the flags that should expext to be there..


as to the "one move" rule
HFF actually tries hard to make that known
some drivers try very hard not to take notice

RuE

[midgetman]

For the avoidance of doubt on kerbs, these are the official MSA photos from 2014 that were alluded to earlier. Can't get clearer than that, notice the white line is between the kerb and the track and it is perfectly legal to cross it onto the kerb.


Handy thing social media

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[terence]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Not in the UK though. The kerbs are part of the track so, even though it doesn't physically, the white line runs around the outside edge of the kerb.

Photo please.

[SamBinfield]

Funny which topics of discussion tend to be the most emotive - clearly the answer is track limits and safety cars. Can I humbly request a return to the familiar and comfortable territory of Spa Six Hour laptimes, oversize MGB engines and Griffith body shapes?

[midgetman]

See my pictures above, Terence. They're official MSA pictures and show where the white line is.

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[Robyn Slater]

The imaginary concrete wall moves when you get to the kerbs. Just imagine an imaginary wall on the outside of the kerb, not the white line on the wrong side of said kerb. Simples

[Gerard C]

Or you can ask Formula E drivers why they respect track limits…

[Johno.UK]

.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Because its a joke... basically, its contradictory of its own self.... rule is as follows .......................



................. READ THE REGS

Claire, I appreciate that I am now considered to be a boring old f*rt, but what you have said is so blindingly obvious that the powers that be should be aware of what a cock-up they have created. And it is a drum that I have beaten quite a few times on this forum's pages.

I have never understood the requirement in more modern times to have curbing on virtually every racing circuit, except that they "protect" the edges of the tracks for the benefit of the circuit operators. There are countless videos/Youtubes online which show how racing conducted 50 or so years ago, and drivers were completely able to keep their far less sophisticated machines right between the white lines, and at the same time produced some of the most thrilling racing that one could want to see.

Unfortunately, in my mind, so much of this attitude to permit these things come about from a general malaise that persists in society where individuals seem incapable of exercising god old fashioned self control.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Claire, I appreciate that I am now considered to be a boring old f*rt, but what you have said is so blindingly obvious that the powers that be should be aware of what a cock-up they have created. And it is a drum that I have beaten quite a few times on this forum's pages.

I have never understood the requirement in more modern times to have curbing on virtually every racing circuit, except that they "protect" the edges of the tracks for the benefit of the circuit operators. There are countless videos/Youtubes online which show how racing conducted 50 or so years ago, and drivers were completely able to keep their far less sophisticated machines right between the white lines, and at the same time produced some of the most thrilling racing that one could want to see.

Unfortunately, in my mind, so much of this attitude to permit these things come about from a general malaise that persists in society where individuals seem incapable of exercising god old fashioned self control.

At last... someone who gets what I am saying

[midgetman]

One of the reasons karting is so expensive is because the guys need new frames two or three times a year. That's because they hit the kerbs every corner in just the fashion shown as "legal" in the official photos. Some of the karting kerbs are monsters "but to be quick you have to smash the kerbs."

Guess what? We have the karts on the jig every Saturday night after testing, and sometimes between races. Three frames per year isn't unusual.

All because of the great God of "smashing the kerbs." If the kerbs were made illegal costs would plummet. And to my mind, skills would rocket - any damned fool can be quick if every corner is a straight line!

But suggest that on the karting forums, and it's as if I'd suggested putting videos of the rules on social media. God, I was flamed.

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[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

One of the reasons karting is so expensive is because the guys need new frames two or three times a year. That's because they hit the kerbs every corner in just the fashion shown as "legal" in the official photos. Some of the karting kerbs are monsters "but to be quick you have to smash the kerbs."

Guess what? We have the karts on the jig every Saturday night after testing, and sometimes between races. Three frames per year isn't unusual.

All because of the great God of "smashing the kerbs." If the kerbs were made illegal costs would plummet. And to my mind, skills would rocket - any damned fool can be quick if every corner is a straight line!

But suggest that on the karting forums, and it's as if I'd suggested putting videos of the rules on social media. God, I was flamed.

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I know we don't see eye to eye on some things... but do you see what I am saying?..

This is what is a joke, is that if the circuit doesn't put em there... YOU CANT USE EM... they only put em there to stop the rest of it being churned up, run ons are now added for "safety" but as you can clearly see by the illustrations .. drivers will try to go faster out of a corner and use that ... hence my point, and here is the thing.... this thread (and the other) all refer to consistency.. "The rules need to be consistent"... yet, we've admitted on here that we drive differently at UK circuits than abroad... that if we are on a street circuit...or one with a wall... we wont go over the line... so we CAN do it... we are just lazy and THAT was what I was getting at.

To put it another way .....as the late great John Smith Clerk of The Course used to say... "The Accelerator works both ways you know"

[dikko]

In defence of our Historic Formula Fords we have NEVER been relaxed when it comes to respecting our Orange heroes.

This determined driving past Marshals trying to do their job was obviously thought (by someone with such a motor racing history) blatantly disrespectful. His opinion is respected, this attitude will be addressed.

HFF

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I know we don't see eye to eye on some things... but do you see what I am saying?..

Claire I don't know if I made it clear but I totally abhor the use of kerbs.

The Esses at my local track have had a h-u-g-e sausage kerb put on the exit, it rips the engine mounts off if you get it wrong. Guess what? People respect it and chassis aren't getting wrecked! And lap times haven't suffered either.

So what do we think of the following photos. MiniMM sent them to me, entitled "side by side at 170mph for the lead of the N24." Is this exciting, daring racing or should the overtaking car be penalised for driving on the grass? Or should the red car be penalised for sending him out there?



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[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

So what do we think of the following photos. MiniMM sent them to me, entitled "side by side at 170mph for the lead of the N24." Is this exciting, daring racing or should the overtaking car be penalised for driving on the grass? Or should the red car be penalised for sending him out there?

I wonder of penalising both would work?

BTW, off topic but ...

I watched a little of the night session courtesy of the link provided elsewhere and have to say that the flashing blue lights at top right (looking forward) of the windscreen was incredibly distracting.

What are they for?

Do the drivers just get used to it after a minute or so?

I assume that when in the car and driving they are something that is acceptable but on the live stream I thought they were incredibly distracting.

(Especially when trying to find the kerbs on the right!)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

So what do we think of the following photos. MiniMM sent them to me, entitled "side by side at 170mph for the lead of the N24." Is this exciting, daring racing or should the overtaking car be penalised for driving on the grass? Or should the red car be penalised for sending him out there?

Surely if you exceed track limits to avoid hitting another car, then that should not be penalised? If you gain an advantage by doing so, then maybe. The incident in those pics suggests to me that the Manthey Porsche (the yellow one) had the choice of side to side contact or exceeding track limits, so IMO no penalty...

Also at the N24, one competitor had to take completely to the grass to avoid an intervention vehicle. I guess there would have been white ‘slow vehicle on track’ flags that he should have seen, so penalise him for that, but not exceeding limits.

More blatant- at the French GP, Ricciardo drove completely outside the track twice to overtake other cars, so was rightly penalised. Of course, had there been a wall at the edge of the track, he wouldn’t have done it. But there wasn’t, so he did.....

[Johno.UK]

As far as the grass part of it goes there's nothing wrong with that move as far as the rules that race runs under is concerned which is why he didn't get a penalty.

The Porsche has two wheels on the track which is all that's required so it never exceeded track limits.

It would be totally illegal in the UK as all four wheels have to be on the track (or the track and kerb).

[bauble]

There is a very simple way to stop most of these tactics;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xWL0wCfIFU

Look to the past.

Uncle Bob.

[Willmaz223]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I have never understood the requirement in more modern times to have curbing on virtually every racing circuit, except that they "protect" the edges of the tracks

Curbing makes the track look nice .Maybe more professional.

[Willmaz223]

Originally Posted by bauble

There is a very simple way to stop most of these tactics;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xWL0wCfIFU

Look to the past.

Uncle Bob.

I must admit I kind of got distracted by the cars .

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by grantp

I watched a little of the night session courtesy of the link provided elsewhere and have to say that the flashing blue lights at top right (looking forward) of the windscreen was incredibly distracting.

What are they for?

The blue windscreen lights are on the faster cars (either the top qualifiers or the GT3 class, not sure which) and are to help slower cars see that one of the much faster cars is behind them. The Nordschleife is very dark at night, there is a lot of traffic and multiple classes with dramatic speed differentials, so any help is good.

On the topic, I have always understood that two wheels over the white line is acceptable, four wheels is not. I have heard this said so many times that it never occurred to me there was any other view! I am also surprised to read rules stating that kerbs are considered part of the track. As the white line is always painted between kerb and tarmac it seems clear that they are not part if the track, but that two wheels on them is fine as long as the other two are on the tarmac side of the white line.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Willmaz223

I must admit I kind of got distracted by the cars .

Ditto... facinating and a different time

[midgetman]

Mark Hughes has an article on F1 driving standards in Motor Sport this month. He basically says proscribed rules in what is wrong and what is right with mandatory penalties is killing the sport. He advocated no time penalties just the black flag. Drive like an arse and you're out, basically, and it's a subjective decision not stewarding by numbers.

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[midgetman]

Here it is

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[grantp]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

The blue windscreen lights are on the faster cars (either the top qualifiers or the GT3 class, not sure which) and are to help slower cars see that one of the much faster cars is behind them. The Nordschleife is very dark at night, there is a lot of traffic and multiple classes with dramatic speed differentials, so any help is good.

Yes I get that but it still seems to be distracting to the driver to put the things where they are. And then flash them.

And what is the information displayed? Some other sort of use beyond the blue class/speed identification light?

Presumably these lights will, in some indirect way, have an influence of driving standards, especially for the way that slower cars might be expected to use them to identify when to get out of the way.

Maybe they are more distracting on in-car video than they are are in reality for the driver.