Standard Production Racing returns for 2007

[DriversKnow]

The BARC/Dunlop Sport Maxx Cup, announced on ten-tenths before Christmas, is looking promising for 2007.

This weekend at Thruxton two cars (VXR Astra and Hyundai Coupe) were used to evaluate the standard Dunlop road tyre that will be used in the cup.

I think that this has the potential to appeal to a range of competitors, from professional teams at Cupra or GT level to club racers wanting to run a road legal car on a sensible budget.

What do you reckon?

More at driversknow.co.uk/greatbritishfestivals

[R59]

Production S1???????????

[BertMk2]

Do we really need yet another new class? Especially one so close to an existing category.

[Al Weyman]

Trouble with these things there is always some cars that are more 'standard' than others isn't there?

[DriversKnow]

Yes, Dunlop sponsor Britcar s1, but they are longer distance races for a diverse group of cars from BTCC cars to Group N on slicks.

This is for road legal 'sub - group N' - back to the days of the old Prodasaloons in the 80s and early 90s.

[Al Weyman]

Then there will always be one must have model that will dominate everything.

[R59]

Then hopefully the BARC are ready to weild the cunning penalty stick to level the playing field, be that weight, or inlet restrictors.

The main problem is it's another series vying for the racer's buck. And most of the old prod-saloon teams seem to be happy doing Prod S1 in Britcar.

It's probably too much of a step up for the 750MC stock/hot hatch boys due to the cost of building a car, compared to running a £3K Fiesta or Saxo/106.

It would have to be really good "if" I had say 30K available for the car, and running budget of another £20-30K. I'd be weighing it up against Prod S1, and at the moment, longer races (more track time) wins.

Mind you, there were some Spoon Honda Integra's available recently for £12K, brand spanky new, ready to prep.

If someone wanted me to build them a car for it, I'd do it.

Rob.

[carrera]

888 can supply a ready to race Astra for a few beers short of 50k. Is spending that sort of sum club racing?

[Al Weyman]

There you go they are off with the fairys before it has even started!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by carrera

888 can supply a ready to race Astra for a few beers short of 50k. Is spending that sort of sum club racing?

It doesn't take a lot to get to that sort of figure, have you ever worked out what your car has cost?
There are a few cars in at least one of the race series you participate in that would be close to that figure if not way over.

[R59]

But that's 888 building a car for you.

You could build one yourself for much much less - but will it be a front runner? Do you want to just race with the "it" crowd, or race at the front?

With Dunlop's backing, and marketing, it should make finding a sponsor a little easier than riding a unicycle with one leg in plaster with your hands tied behind your back.

What you have to realise Al, is that people who are likely to go for this series won't be the "genuine" clubbies like me and you who turn up on their jack jones, running their own car, it'll be the established teams like Mardi Gras, and others that run cars in Production S1. Perhaps they will have a car that does both - on slicks in S1, and on road rubber for Sport Maxx.

Who know's, but this time next year, it'll either be a hit, or a miss.

I was talking to an engineer a while back to said that in his many years of experience of motor racing, on both sides of the fence (competitor, and official), what the public want to see are "angry cars". Meaning things like the old Superloons, Thundersaloons, and maybe the new V8 Supercars.

There are purist "enthusiasts" that eat sleep and breath single seaters, but joe public wants to see "angry cars". Cars that stir the soul.

Like Rockingham - the public go to see the SCSA cars, big angry V8's, not the buzzing pickups, regardless of how good and close their racing is.

The answer is to get the public through the doors, fill the stands, and subsidise (or fully pay for) the grid. Then you will have reached success.

Oh there I go again, like a scratched record.

Perhaps someone will listen one day.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Oh I agree hence the Camaros, if I wanted to win I would build a Pug!

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by falcemob

It doesn't take a lot to get to that sort of figure, have you ever worked out what your car has cost?
There are a few cars in at least one of the race series you participate in that would be close to that figure if not way over.

But some of those cars are genuine WRC or DTM cars, or competing on a level with those - that level being seriously modified. From how I understand the Production Maxx Sport (delete as applicable) to be run there are very few modifications allowed - brakes are standard, suspension is standard, engine is "standard". Very far from S1, as I understand it. With some of the cars that Gary races with you can see that they should cost big money to develop, a near standard astra for 50k is less easy to justify.
If 888 feel they will get customers at 50k then good luck to them. You could get a car on the grid for a fraction of that cost. The whole idea of going up against a team like 888 who will spend a small fortune developing is off-putting, tho; at least to the likes of me - so my 4k Saxo idea will stay unfulfilled for a little while at least.

Also, weren't cars that become obsolete/too old from this series being pointed towards the Toyos series? Has it been confirmed that the Toyos will be running with Classic Thunder next year, or is that just rumours?

[Alan Cherry]

Funnily enough, I was reading regs on BARCs web site today ( no I wasn't if my boss is reading this!) - seems a bit like the DTRC format with a shorter race followed by a longer race ( although 2 qualifying sessions ) races a bit longer than DTRC. Registration is £100, entry fees are £280 for two races, or £320 for the rounds where the second race is even longer and you run two drivers. Seems more for people hoping to progress in the saloon category, or the more wealthy amatuer- I suspect what you will save on engine/chassis development will be spent on body panels (ok I'm just an old cynic).
I'd go and watch it - If someone else wanted to pay for it -I'd do it
However, I reckon someone run by a profesional team will win it, and as Al says one car will be dominant- there are different classes, but people only talk about overall winners - not the guy who wins class D but finishes 17th overall. Ok gents place your bets now what is going to dominate ? list of eligable cars on BARC website- how about 888VXR or a Civic type R ?

[DriversKnow]

Yes, £40k is for an off the shelf car, but a similar car could be built from a write off for about a third of that I guess.

BARc have had enquiries from plenty of drivers who intend to tackle this on a budget too. The up to 5 year old limit keeps it contemporary enough to attract dealer and manufacturer support, but does allow some cheaper cars in too.

The Saxo and 106 are possibilities, as is the option of converting a Leon or Clio to Prod spec once they become redundant from TOCA this year. We have had enquiries from standard Mini Cooper owners too. I think it will offer a chance for newer production spec cars from championships such as the VW Cup and Alfa Challenge to race in a mixed field too.

I'm tempted to try this on a budget myself.............

[Al Weyman]

Can I enter a Monaro VXR? :-)

Joking aside I know they have capped the cc, if I did not have cars and projects in abundance I may be tempted but as driversknows says I would do it myself from a scrapper and if I did manage the odd good position against the well heeled would get immense satisfaction from doing so.

Has it been confirmed that the Toyos will be running with Classic Thunder next year, or is that just rumours?

Was wondering about that myself. To be honest I am not sure how I feel on this and I do hope CTRCC allows some consultation with members before committing. I am not sure about the mandatory Toyo 888's rule and no slicks as currently only Kumhos fit my CT car and I can drop a class because not running on slicks something that attracted me to the championship. Presumably that consession will go out the window if this happens.

[R59]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Can I enter a Monaro VXR? :-)

Yes Al, according to the regs, it's a Class D car (161bhp/tonne and over)

I have studied the draft regs, and they look pretty reasonable. Only fly in the ointment is the bit where it says that car which are too old can go to Class E Mod Prods... perhaps they'll give it the kiss of life in three or four years then..

Now how am I going to get a Monaro into Class C so I can have 59.....

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Well thats as I understood what was happening but presumably if they merge with CT there will be no economy class and the natural place for them in the CTRCC would be to pre 93 regs but then that would have to go up to pre 06 so can't see that working.

[archibold]

Sorry I have to say this is exactly the same as BRSCC tried a few years ago to resurrect Prod Saloons. A number of us built Group N spec cars and turned up to race expecting a big grid as we had been promised (I had a nice Pug 106 professionally built)...the grid never materialised (4 cars was the most we managed) and I was lucky to sell the car for track days (the regs specified weld in cages whereas stock hatch are bolt in) to recover anything from the car or spares package.

Consequently I would be very wary of building a car for a new series like this until I had seen the grid...

Since then been in Britcar/Prod S1 and very happy.

Don't want to put anyone off going racing, but be wary of any new series where the car won't be saleable elsewhere/have another series it can be used in.

Archibold

[Woolley]

If it hoovers up ½ doz undersupported series and clears a bit of space while having a marketing budget to throw at it, then I'm in favour. If it's yet another series, then please, no. The target should be to bring together a host of competitors to one sensibly priced championship, preferably with the support of the current organisers of each of those series. It would be so nice to be proved wrong for once.

[DriversKnow]

That is the hope Woolley......

It leaves BARC with a nice hierarchy of (mainly Dunlop sponsored) championships to cater for all cars.

BTCC and Sport Maxx Cup for contemporary cars in either S2000 or standard spec, ModProds to cater for cars too old for Sport Maxx Cup, and then Classic Touring now covering everything from the fifties to the nineties.

All of these are well placed to scoop up cars from lesser supported championships.

With the Sport Maxx Cup on the Dunlop Great and British package, we hope to be able to announce a TV deal soon as well.

[redshoes]

What series are you expecting to 'scoop up' cars from. I can't think of many where the cars would be easily transferrable.

Production S1, VW Cup, Castle Combe Saloons spring to mind but all are likley to be too highly modified to Maxx Cup and none are that poorly supported.

[Al Weyman]

I personally really like the concept of a series like this but I think and this is why they have all failed in the past (IMHO) there is a fundemental fly in the ointment which is unfortunately whether we like it or not people cheat. It is a fact, it is undeniable, I have seen it on quite a few occassions when running ModProds on anything from hiding rosejoints within rubber bushes, bending solid axles, secret nitros injection fed from the tubes of the roll cage etc etc etc. I could go on and on.

Now with modern mapped ignitions and computers the opportunities to cheat are further enhanced and even post and pre race power testing will be a nonsense as power outputs can be changed by the flick of a secret switch.

For this to be work the cheating has to be addressed, how you do this I don't know (anyone got any suggestions?). We had a buying plate in ModProds originally and although never used and often slatted I noticed after it got voted out by people that wanted to spend massive amounts on this club racing championship set up to deter this, things started to go down the pan. Coincidence maybe but a fact never the less.

[greenamex2]

I'd bet £100 that this won't succeed.

EERC Production S1 caters for the people with bigger budgets.

750MC Stock hatch caters for people with smaller budgets (for the car if not the body work).

BRSCC LMA Saloons caters for all budgets.

I'd be surprised if people move en-masse from these to a new series and risk getting stung if it got small grids and was cancelled.

And yes, they have a large number of people seriously interested. If everyone that was 'seriously interested' in Mod Prods turned up to a race we would have two grids.

[Al Weyman]

And yes, they have a large number of people seriously interested. If everyone that was 'seriously interested' in Mod Prods turned up to a race we would have two grids.

Dennis you are not wrong. I was amazed by the amount of people that were not just seriously interested but serious enough to get their hands into their wallets and actually pay the registration fee but still never to appear!

Also because of my afore mentioned comment on cheating or tweeking the rules however you want to put it and the prices quoted for a prepared car I would say that in reality to be a front runner in a 'stock' specification car can in fact cost more than allowing certaing modifications as allowed in ModProds and this was the basis of the championship. I looked at all these little cheats people wer doing and wrote them into the rules making them legal so no one had an advantage which is how in the end rose joints were infact allowed as an example. I learnt this lesson from running a Sunbeam Talbit in Road Saloons and being told I had to run 'standard' road springs till I caught the co-ordinator changing his behind a shed at Snett. I changed mine and the next meeting put it on pole after a year of trying, what a joke!