Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by JimW

But actually pretty ineffective.

Jim

Flags have served the motorsport industry pretty well over the last 60 odd years...can't be that ineffective....if they are I might as well not bother turning up to marshal.....what's your beef with flags??....yes I agree light boxes have their advantages, but they aren't the answer in their current guise.....I still think flags are still more effective at the moment....hell, if they aren't then me flagging for the last few years has been completely pointless, it's funny though that drivers seem to pay attention to them and recognise that they are there!...and as a driver myself I recognise when they are out....I think they are a darn more effective than you think....just maybe drivers choose to ignore them sometimes.....

....yes in the heat of the moment drivers can miss them or be unsigned if they are blocked by another car next to them, and they can even choose to ignore them.....when I've slowed for yellows before, other drivers seem to go full steam ahead....is it because they haven't seen them? No....it's because they choose to ignore them and in the heat of a race, keeping up with the guy in front is more important than slowing for yellows....they'd do the same thing if a light box was there too

Replacing a flag with a light will improve visibility a bit, but only if the box is in the correct place, but at the moment there isn't a box that can display more than one flag at once and show different degrees of danger....you can do that with a flag and it's a hell of a lot cheeper!

I still think the msa are creating a problem that doesn't exist.....how many overtakes under yellows do we actually have, how many drivers have said they can't see the flag signals. How come all of a sudden this is an issue that didn't exist before....or if it did exist before are the msa admitting negligence by having a completely ineffective system for the last 60 odd years!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Showing a double waved yellow flag, a white flag and a "CHANGE OF SURFACE" flag at the same time.
"Go ahead, make my day!"

That's my point, it can't be done on your own...I've done waved yellow, white and stationary change of surface before...you can't do double waved yellow and the other 2 now

[kipper]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Flags have served the motorsport industry pretty well over the last 60 odd years...can't be that ineffective.

At the risk of taking this thread off topic, but if motor racing was starting today, I'd be surprised if flags, sometimes displayed a significant distance away from the circuit would be the method of choice for communicating to drivers. Lights are not perfect, but then neither are flags.

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by deley

It never should have been usual to have DWY for marshals trackside. I have had several "conversations" with other marshals including post chiefs regarding this.

Some circuits/clubs/clerks asked for DWY for live snatching (at Brands certainly) to give DWY, SWY, SY giving a 3 flag point yellow zone. This has never meant that the norm for marshals trackside was DWY.

Fully agree with you Dave, I've always recognised that DWY was not on the statute books but often requested by clerks. At one meeting the PC from the next post came strutting down at end of session and chewed me off for NOT going DWY when I hadn't had a clerk instruction; he clearly took the view it was normal. Apparently he had requested via RC but it didn't get through to me. This signals a need for better communications, but that is another subject!

The rule change will at least remove this type on confusion brought about by varied interpretation of rules.

[Slipstick]

But at the moment the MSA are not doing away with flags. They're making them more difficult for us to use, presumably in the belief that IF we manage to use them "correctly" they will be easier for the drivers to see. I say presumably because we don't actually know why this change was made. The MSA simply does what it wants and rarely feels any need to explain or justify its decisions.

What with this and the "one wheel off" ruling it certainly looks like the "Year of appreciation and consideration for the volunteer" has well and truly ended .

Steve

[ascarracinguk]

Indeed, it's going to be a very busy year full of inconsistencies,errors and report writing by the sounds of it.....slightly back on topic though....how can we sort this out other than bashing it on a forum

I think we need the following really

1) an answer from the msa on WHY they did it
2) guidance from the msa on how to display dwy and other flags during an incident...which flag takes priority when single handed!
3) a clear answer on what to do if you are short handed on report writing/calling into race control.....which post either side calls it in/ do you drop a flag to call it in etc...

It's all well and good coming up with ideas on a forum to combat the new problems (which we will ultimately end up having to do for this year) but if we don't get answers from those questions the msa get off scott free and don't understand the issues they have just caused.....they've just thrown the hand grenade in and ****ed off!

On the flip side...how to tackle the problems. I think all circuits now need to have hazard boards, safety car boards and stripy flag boards attached to the post so they can be put on when needed. At least it will reduce the issues a bit. Failing that I think incident marshals on post need to be able to assist flag marshals when necessary....at places like oulton it's not really an issue....at donington it is.....

.....failing that let's all go American and have safety safaris to deal with the crashes and everyone else deal with the flags

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I say presumably because we don't actually know why this change was made.

We do - the reason was stated here:

http://msauk.org/uploadedfiles/regul...ceMay2013a.pdf

"The FIA no longer use stationary flag which are not always visible to the driver."

What with this and the "one wheel off" ruling it certainly looks like the "Year of appreciation and consideration for the volunteer" has well and truly ended .

"One wheel off" isn't going to make a big difference.

[Woolley]

Hmm, a lot of interesting chat here. To summarise one or two things:

DWY never existed at national level. It only exists at FIA on instruction from RC (of course under certain circumstances one can be creative - "I'm upgrading to DWY unless I receive a contra-instruction" - when felt to be reeeally necessary).

Adding Y/R or white to waved yellows is not something I've often done. If the yellow is sufficiently necessary the others become superfluous. Just a couple of occasions I can think of - Y/R for a massive oil slick, the cause of which was being attended to by marshals; white for when a 3-wheeler was crawling past a car beached in the gravel (which got worse when the SC came out at the same time. Fortunately we were two-up and an interesting flag swapping session went on!)

I don't really have a problem with lights replacing flags IF they are well enough designed, sufficiently efficient and easy to use and most importantly, reliable. Maintenance of marshalling stuff is not necessarily a high priority and I can foresee failures. Lights added to proper coms and kept in perfect working order would be a pretty good solution to some of the problems of low numbers.

[exflagman]

If the reason is to improve the visibility of the flag signals then I fail to understand how a marshal struggling to wave two soaking wet flags in a strong wind is an improvement on what we have now, given that from what I have seen many flag marshals seem incapable of displaying a single waved yellow properly.
Maybe it is a clever plot to force all circuits to install lights when this proposal all goes pear shaped in practice.

[EnglishPaddy]

if motor racing was starting today, I'd be surprised if flags, sometimes displayed a significant distance away from the circuit would be the method of choice for communicating to drivers.

http://retropopplanet.files.wordpres...brooklands.jpg

C.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by exflagman

If the reason is to improve the visibility of the flag signals then I fail to understand how a marshal struggling to wave two soaking wet flags in a strong wind is an improvement on what we have now, given that from what I have seen many flag marshals seem incapable of displaying a single waved yellow properly.
Maybe it is a clever plot to force all circuits to install lights when this proposal all goes pear shaped in practice.

Yeh that!

I have to say I've never missed a stationary yellow flag when racing....I agree that they aren't as visable as a waved yellow....but why not just use the fia rules in that case and go single waved, single waved.....surely that would just clear up any confusion between international rules and national rules and increase visibility at the same time....

....a lot has to be said for current flags too....many circuit flags are dirty/faded etc....maybe it's about time they got replaced or washed to make them more visable...oulton parks are pretty good, lightweight and slightly dayglo yellow...but donington ones are horrendous when wet...they're too heavy, faded etc etc...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by kipper

. . . Lights are not perfect, but then neither are flags.

No, they are just better. (If properly designed, engineered, sited and operated by well trained good people.)

Regards

Jim

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by EnglishPaddy

http://retropopplanet.files.wordpres...brooklands.jpg

C.

The sign in the background is something to which I (and no doubt others) can relate.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by JimW

No, they are just better. (If properly designed, engineered, sited and operated by well trained good people.)

Regards

Jim

That's a lot of ifs!!!

Currently they aren't designed very well, aren't sited properly at many circuits and are operated by flaggies....not had any training to tell me how to use them....

The same can be said for flaggies....if the flags are designed properly with the correct material, the posts are situated in the correct place so drivers can see them properly and are operated by well trained flaggies then currently they are better than a light system

Do you really expect a circuit like oulton to now go out and buy a new system and position them in a different place, even though there are shortcomings with the current system???

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by numbersix

The sign in the background is something to which I (and no doubt others) can relate.

LMFAO that's genius!!!

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by JimW

No, they are just better. (If properly designed, engineered, sited and operated by well trained good people.)

Yep, that's what we said. They're no better. It's possible that some different lights positioned differently and run by different people might be better.

Similarly better flags used by well trained good people from properly designed and sited flag points would be better than we have now...but I'm not holding my breath even for that small improvement .

Steve

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by JimW

No, they are just better. (If properly designed, engineered, sited and operated by well trained good people.)

Regards

Jim

I think you need to add the word motivated in there as well. I am not sure I would have been that keen to get up at some unearthly hour, spend pounds on petrol money to drive many miles just to stand around all day pushing a few buttons. Having done the old Silverstone Farm lights a couple of times I found I just could not really get into the flow of the racing.

[Steve Fox]

Hmm, Confused now. I have my 2014 paper version of the blue book and there is no mention of these "changes" There is a slight change to the wording on green flags on formation laps but that's it. No double yellows mentioned. Now as a 2014 blue book costs 30 quid is there likely to be a re issue or just a slip in sheet?

[The Fat Clerk]

Got the slip sheet a week ago in with the MSA News

[Steve Fox]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Got the slip sheet a week ago in with the MSA News

Am I the only one that thinks that is is somewhat "odd" that a major change to flag marshalling isn't even in the rule book that has only just been published? I know that setting up and laying out of the publication takes time but surely the consultation process should have taken longer than the printing process...

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I have to say I've never missed a stationary yellow flag when racing

How do you know? If you missed it you wouldn't know because you missed it...

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

why not just use the fia rules in that case and go single waved, single waved

Ignoring the fact that those aren't the FIA rules, that would be an interesting set up. How do you know if the single waved you can see is the one for the incident or the one that precedes the incident? I seem to remember something along those lines actually being proposed once until it was pointed out the problem of interpretation.

[exflagman]

I recall that being idea being proposed at the flag marshals briefing at one Silverstone GP. I guess muggins had to be the one to ask how you stopped it going all round the circuit. It was dropped!.
Not sure if that was the same GP that they changed the yellow flag rules half way through the race

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Woolley

How do you know? If you missed it you wouldn't know because you missed it...


Ignoring the fact that those aren't the FIA rules, that would be an interesting set up. How do you know if the single waved you can see is the one for the incident or the one that precedes the incident? I seem to remember something along those lines actually being proposed once until it was pointed out the problem of interpretation.

Lol smart arse!!

I'm pretty sure I haven't missed one anyway! I know I've always slowed down for incidents so must have noticed most/all of them

And I need to brush up on my fia flags then! Shows how many fia meetings I've flagged at!!!

[Slipstick]

While we're here can I check if I understand the FIA flag rules ? Just for interest really cus I'm not likely ever to do any FIA meetings. I think they always wave the yellow but normally only at the post immediately before the incident. Single normally but upgraded to double only if Race Control say so. Is that right ?

Doesn't that seem even less safe than even our old rules ? There's considerably less warning for the drivers and a much shorter no-overtaking zone. After all even if every driver somehow managed to miss the old stationary yellow they'd still have as much warning from the next waved yellow as they get from the single FIA waved yellow. Odd.

Steve

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

Single normally but upgraded to double only if Race Control say so. Is that right ?
Steve

Nope, the decision to go double-waved can come from either the marshals post or race control. Of course, the tower can ask you to down/upgrade as needed.