Use of "Gravel Trap"

[Maisie]

I think the main point is that the marshals' forum is just one part of the whole larger 10-10ths forum structure. You marshals may be used to being the only members of a website, and being able to talk about everything in the same place. On this forum, you're all part of a bigger community. This particular sub-forum is here for you to discuss issues to do with marshaling such as how to attract new members, it's not a private "marshals only" chat area, and shouldn't be used as such. The Gravel Trap is there for general chat. There's not a lot wrong with putting sillier comments if a thread goes in that direction, as long as there aren't some members who feel that the original point of discussion hasn't been finished with, or has been lost, but threads JUST for chitchat ought to be in the Gravel Trap. BUT, I don't agree with, for example, the "come and play" thread in the 'Trap, which starts with "This is for all the flaggies etc etc." I'm sure you lot would be offended by a thread which implied that only certain groups were welcome to contribute to a particular thread, so the rest of the 10-10ths members would be within their rights to feel excluded and offended by that one. I am saying this partly as one of the 10-10ths staff, but mostly as a concerned member (but my previous post in the "getting too silly" thread was made solely as a normal member, and I deeply resent the implication that I want you all in the GT just so I have power over you - that's rubbish) - yes, there are in-jokes in the GT, but not as far as I can tell that many - whereas every thread recently here seems to have been taken over by a small group of people talking about things which only 5 or 6 would know about. Now, I've seen comments from marshals saying that they hate it when groups of friends get posted together, and make newcomers feel excluded - don't make the same mistake here.

Now, I'm probably going to either be ignored for this or flamed, but either way, I'm not going to comment any further - it's up to Stephen what happens in this forum.

[EvilPumpkin]

You know, I'm starting to think that there's some truth to the old story about the guy who asks "What's the collective name for a group of marshals" and is told "an argument"!

Just a few points

• This specific forum area is linked from at least one marshals' website that I'm aware of - and anyone using it from there will have no visibility of other forum areas - so try to bear that in mind when you're talking about moving posts.
• There are a lot of marshals talking here - some of them are new to marshalling this year and didn't seem to feel that they were excluded from the conversations - most of them are now regular posters.
• There have been any number of occasions where someone wants to marshal a different circuit (sometimes in other countries) and has managed to make contacts prior to going. I think this is great as it can be very daunting turning up to a new circuit and not knowing anyone at all. The contacts made here are valuable ones and I don't think they would be as easy to make if the only contact people had was heavy weight serious discussions at all times.
• Marshals aren't the only people that post here - and anyone else that has posted has always been made welcome. We get moderately regular contributions from lots of other users, including team members, drivers, spectators, commentators, photographers...... That doesn't exactly stink of "cliquyness" (um is that a word?) Of course after the 2nd or 3rd post, we try to recruit them........
• Up until now I think there has been a good balance between serious threads and humourous threads. But as has been pointed out elsewhere, as we go into the off season, the humour will probably outweigh the serious for a while - simply because issues are not cropping up as much.

Ok I think that covers everything I have to say. One final point - it's a tenet of pretty much all the forums on 10-10ths and it needs to be applied here as well I think - Attack the post, not the poster

If you don't like what someone has said - be it about humour/marshalling/racing/the colour purple/wombles - then explain why. There's no need to get insulting about it. If you are unhappy with them on for a personal reason, then contact them directly or talk to one of the mods.

[Teletubby]

I think it's been summed up perfectly by EP and DarrellB!

If somebody with an interest in going marshalling visited this forum and found only threads about 'Marshalling Issues' then they'd pretty soon disappear.

The vast majority of those threads fall into the morbid/hysterical/whinging categories, a bit of humour tends to lighten the overall mood of the forum.

I tend to agree though that maybe things have got a bit out of hand over the past few days, personally I've been at a loose end and so posting on here helped to pass the time. Not all the posts were in the same vein I hasten to add!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Maisie
I'm sure you lot would be offended by a thread which implied that only certain groups were welcome to contribute to a particular thread, so the rest of the 10-10ths members would be within their rights to feel excluded and offended by that one.

Interesting point! Some time ago I had the audacity to post a comment in the single seater forum commenting that F3 could be boring. I was told that it was none of my business & that I shouldn't post in 'their' forum if I didn't agree with what everyone else was saying. I don't think that would happen in the marshals forum!

We must remember that marshals are, relatively speaking, a small group of people with a very closely defined area of interest & a lot of shared experiences, & that many of the members of this forum have actually met, in many cases before joining ten-tenths. In such a group there will be what appear to be 'in-jokes' & comments which may appear to be cryptic to the casual observer; this is not intended to be exclusive, it's just a natural part of the dynamics of a closeknit group. I have no problems with the frivolous comments made in this forum (let's face it, I'm as guilty as anybody!). What the gainsayers fail to understand is that marshals, in general, are the sort of people who don't take themselves seriously; we do, however, take the job very seriously - ask any driver who has been unfortunate enough to require our services.

Incidentally, I wasn't offended by the comments made to me in the single seater forum; immaturity is not a crime!

[TimD]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Interesting point! Some time ago I had the audacity to post a comment in the single seater forum commenting that F3 could be boring. I was told that it was none of my business & that I shouldn't post in 'their' forum if I didn't agree with what everyone else was saying. I don't think that would happen in the marshals forum!

I totally agree. And in my opinion, what was said to you in the other department by whichever member was out of order.

The key thing here is not to get into entrenched positions, because this really is a very minor irritant in what is a fascinating forum to a non-participating spectator. I think the original point that was made does have some merit, though. I very nearly missed the valuable and informative discussion on the Formula Ford Festival that's been posted this weekend, because just lately I've found myself "skimming" the marshals forum because with the best will in the world, I'm not up on the sense of humour which develops through the season on the flag and incident posts of the nation's circuits.

What bothered me was that when a frequent poster expressed this concern, the immediate aftermath was that the forum suddenly had two or three extra threads of silliness materialise, and I didn't think that was quite what he expected when he posted.

Don't forget that there is a whole forum out there, and many departments therein. I'm always very happy to see new visitors to the gentle and uncrowded Historic Racing forum, for example, and I'll bet that marshals who've handled Historic Racing in general and Frank Sytner in particular will have some interesting insights into the subject. Don't be strangers!

Finally, EP - a major worry here. This is probably the tenth post I've made in the Marshal's Forum, and you still haven't sent the press-gang round. Don't you love me any more?

[EvilPumpkin]

<quick aside off subject > LOL - of course I still love you darlink - I just know that you have very specialised interests and trying to get you to marshal any car that's less than 25 years old is a waste of time! </quick aside off subject>

[Stephen Green]

Hello folks, I'm back...

Was sick on Friday so not at work and then had the bloody car broken into on Saturday (you can imagine the ribbing I got at Brands yesterday during the Observers briefing!).

I don't have a huge amount to add to the comments already voiced, especially as I too have been guilty of some off topic posts of late. It's fair to say that in the 'off' season when there is precious little to discuss on a more 'normal' marshalling scene, we tend to drift into silly mode. I honestly do not believe it has offended anyone and think the offending threads would be lost in the Gravel Trap Forum as well.

On the assumption that silly threads do not outweigh the more sensible ones, then personally I'm cool with the situation. I would ask that you don't 'hijack' a thread if there is some sensible discussion in progress as that only demeans the prevoius posters and will cause annoyance.

Maybe we should start a few silly threads to accomodate the social banter rather than use existing threads for idle chit chat? Just a thought...

As the joint host of this forum I would ask anyone who has a grievance to PM me in order that I may try to sort the problem out with some tact and diplomacy. Yes I know, you are all going to say "Steve Green...Tact...Diplomacy...hahaha" but it's a serious offer.

What I would like to see is a good mix of serious and less serious threads in this forum. After all, we ALL do a serious job whilst trackside and sometimes marshals need an escape route in which they can vent their feelings.

[Stoowert]

I hate the expression: "You don't have to be mad to work here, but it helps" Too often this is used by people who's personality doesn't raise a flicker on the interesting-O-meter! But I think, in marshalling, the phrase is relevant. Who would stand out in all weathers, watching, sometimes, not very much, only for all of sudden your life could be in imminent danger, while helping a total stranger! So, lets face facts, some of us need to be silly some of the time! Last Saturday, before the 100min enduro, I was really having thoughts of mainly "Why?" I was only snapped out of my slough of despond by the attitude of my fellow marshals, and a really cracking 100 min saloon car race. I did think I was going to have the phone surgicaly removed from my left ear!
Vive la silliness! et vive la Differance!

[Bodysnatcher]

boringly back to topic

Originally posted by Maisie
< a fair bit snipped>
BUT, I don't agree with, for example, the "come and play" thread in the 'Trap, which starts with "This is for all the flaggies etc etc."

I agree with you on that one Masie, and although I couldn't change what was written, I did try to make it more inclusive further down. No thanks or acknoledgement of that attempt at bridge building tho.
but you, you could have made a change, could'nt you?


As for forums being semi-exclusive, just try and suggest that all is not right in the world of CART racing and see how nicely you can be treated there.
Or going to the IRL section and suggesting the same thing re their closed shop.
Say anything pro/con the following F1 drivers Schumacher, M, Montoya or especially at the mo, Webber.

I think the marshals forum is one of the least offensive when it comes to people holding views contrary to those of a moderator.

and finally to those of you that have got this far...

SURELYthe only use for a gravel trap is...
to take that nasty shine off a new set of overalls by inhumation of the wearer

[Stephen Green]

As an afterthought. I have been extremely proud of the postings made by marshals in other forums within ten-tenths and think on balance they have offered constructive advice or criticism. There have been several drivers or team managers/owners who have become closer to the marshalling force since their chats on ten-tenths.

It is my view that the closer we can make those ties, the better it is for all concerned within motorsport. As for the earlier comment that members of the MSA etc read these forums, then I am glad they do. I have no problem with any of my comments being aired at MSA level, nor should the rest of you. Without banging the old drum again, the more the powers that be know of our discontent the better as far as I am concerned. There seems to be precious little the organising clubs and indeed marshals clubs have been able to do to date to make our job easier or more pleasant. If one looks back at the majority of posts over the past year, you will notice the majority of them are not favourable towards marshalling and in that sense are likely to put newcomers off far more than our casual banter.

[Maisie]

I honestly don't know what to make of your statment, Bodysnatcher. It seems I'm damned if I try to encourage you to come to the Gravel Trap and accused of overzealous moderating and trying to spoil people's fun, and then when I don't change a post, I'm accused of not doing my job thoroughly enough.

I give up

It seems, though, that a few of you are using the excuse "it's just as bad in xxx forum." Fine, then complain to the relevant moderator, and use that as an example of how NOT to do it, not as an example to excuse your own behaviour, although granted this forum is nowhere near as bad as a lot of the others.

Finally, if there are marshals coming in through affiliate sites, how about putting a hot topic at the top of the thread list inviting them to join the wider 10-10ths community in the Gravel Trap?

And I said I wasn't going to post anymore..

[Teletubby]

Maybe we should start a few silly threads to accomodate the social banter rather than use existing threads for idle chit chat? Just a thought...

I tried that with 'Warning! This is not a serious thread!', it's moved as if by magic to the GT! Not even a note to show that it's moved

As I have said before, I find that some of the threads in here are too OTT on serious issues, those who know what I do can work it out! (to be 'inclusive', those who don't know can check my profile!), those threads are the ones that I choose not to comment on.

Those that I do choose to comment on are not all examples of silliness but some are, it's a balance thing, at the moment I'm choosing not to take things too seriously!

BTW Maisie seems to be getting flak, am I the only one who finds it ironic that we poor downtrodden should be heckling another volunteer?

[Bodysnatcher]

Sorry maisie, I'm not damning you, anybody that can find time to be a moderator has my admiration for undertaking a (for the most part) thankless task.
It's just the double standards thing - I felt our behavior in here was not ott, but if it was than I listen to that criticism and will make an effort to be more in tune with things. I don't know how your ability to edit posts works in a forum that is outwith your direct responsibility, but if Gonfras first line in that Gravel trap post was out of line, then what I'm trying to say is that you have the ability to apply a gentle touch and steer it back toward acceptable standards.

Enough whatever, I have no problem with you or the way you do things - if problems persist wit how youyr interpreting my words, PM me.

[Stoowert]

Silly question number 1,274,739. What is the Gravel Trap?

[Bodysnatcher]

it's the fing what we bury course marshals in

no, I'm semi-reformed
a wee

click on discussion forum at the top of the page - the path that'll end with this topic ie
Home > Discussion Forum > Other Racing Forums > Marshals Forum > Use of "Gravel Trap"
then click for gravel trap - a place of irrelevance to the racing for the most part but a place to natter about things and get your post count up.

Now he's going to ask me what a post count is and why should he worry about getting it up


ooh err missus

[Brushpusher]

Originally posted by Bodysnatcher


Now he's going to ask me what a post count is and why should he worry about getting it up


ooh err missus

Now you know why he has a Viagra pen!

[Stoowert]

OK, Both questions asked...
BTW I marshalled the London to Brighton run yesterday...all 5hundred and something entrants! I had 2 major incidents to deal with.
1) The Diamond Geezer nearly decked one of the competitors because he was being a bit...er..um of a troublemaker
2) We nearly had a side-by-side contact as one competitor narrowly avoided another. He was on his mobile at the time! True!
Didn't see any Brighton supporters though...despite Annie wearing her Palace scarf!

[pinki]

I've been reading the posts with interest and here's my tuppence worth.

I very rarely pop into the Gravel Trap Forum and even though I know the other Forums exist I don't go into those either. Why you might ask, well to be honest I haven't got the time and they also tend to be a bit on the cliquey side - you know a bit anoraky.

Now I know the above statement will probably cause ructions but I'm a big boy and have never been backwards in coming forwards.

The Marshals Forum is a forum for marshals I thought and if Stephen or his co-moderator feels we have done something wrong I'm sure they'll let us know.

Nuff Sed

[Maisie]

Originally posted by pinki
...and they also tend to be a bit on the cliquey side - you know a bit anoraky.

They? It shouldn't be a case of "us" and "them". It should, if anything be "some of us" - we are all one collective community. Not "the marshals", "the racers", "the staff", "the rest of them" or anything like that. You are all most welcome in any forum, or should be - if you don't understand an in-joke, ask, and if you think the subject matter is sad and anoraky, post your own topic.

[Teletubby]

Errr, Maisie, ummm, not sure how to say this but you've just shot holes in your own , original, comment.

In the Marshals forum, if you don't understand an in-joke, ask, and if you think the subject matter is sad and anoraky, post your own topic. It's the same everywhere!

And there was me trying not to whinge!

[badoer fan]

I agree that the Marshals forum is a forum for Marshals, and of course, we all want to have a laugh sometimes. However, the entire point of the forum is that it is about Marshalling issues - "A place for anyone to meet and chat about the ins and outs of life as a marshal".

And for the off-topic, silly/fun/etc posts, that's what the GT is for. If all the forums had the OT topics in them, then the GT would die.

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
This specific forum area is linked from at least one marshals' website that I'm aware of - and anyone using it from there will have no visibility of other forum areas - so try to bear that in mind when you're talking about moving posts.

To me, that doesn't make much sense. Why not just link the whole forum to the site, or, as someone said, but a 'Hot Topic' in at least? 10-10ths has always been about more than its constituent parts, and functions best as a community as a whole. At the moment it does seem like there is a large community of forums, and then the Marshals forum all by itself. And I assume that Marshals are interested in other aspects of motorsport, or why else would they have gotten into it in the first place?

The other problem is that, while the marshals don't feel like they are missing out, perhaps some of the more fun, humourous topics would be better suited to the GT, as there more people can read them, and join in and contribute, helping with the overall community feel of the place.

[sss]

one of the things that comes to mind here is the viagra pen, now that to me means nothing, yet it 'pops up' on a regular occurance. now that is a thing between a group within the forum,

i could ask what its about but to be honest im not interested and proberbly means more to the people that were there at the time for it to be relevant. But does it ditract from anything well no, i just ignore those bits, threads that dont intrest me i dont read, such as FFF, just because i dont agree with it doesnt mean it shouldnt be here, i just dont read or just skim a thread that has no intrest to me.

if put into the gravel trap thingy, then i dare say it could very easily get 'lost' as statiscally lots of people post and things drop away quicker, so for the people that dont come in here regularly, may not get to read things or join in the banter.

whereas the marshals will tend to always pop in to this forum. some people are also very limited in time able to be spent on the net, so to keep track of everything they would need to check all the marshal topics, then read all the gravel trap topics, (which can be quite a lot and long) especially with the internet stories that are there. but if you have one place for the 'like minded' it does make for simplicity

[sss]

and i cant remember what else i was going to mention cos i cant be bothered to go back through it all

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by badoer fan
I agree that the Marshals forum is a forum for Marshals, and of course, we all want to have a laugh sometimes. However, the entire point of the forum is that it is about Marshalling issues - "A place for anyone to meet and chat about the ins and outs of life as a marshal".


And for the off-topic, silly/fun/etc posts, that's what the GT is for. If all the forums had the OT topics in them, then the GT would die.

So what you're saying is that we must be deadly serious all the time, then, except in the designated 'fun' forum? I've got news for you, sonny. Life ain't like that!

At the moment it does seem like there is a large community of forums, and then the Marshals forum all by itself. And I assume that Marshals are interested in other aspects of motorsport, or why else would they have gotten into it in the first place?

It doesn't look like that to me - most of the people who post regularly in the marshals forum post in a lot of other fora.

The other problem is that, while the marshals don't feel like they are missing out, perhaps some of the more fun, humourous topics would be better suited to the GT, as there more people can read them, and join in and contribute, helping with the overall community feel of the place.

That's a load of . Anybody can read posts in the marshals forum & is welcome to join in.

I've got an idea.....let's stop being so serious about this whole issue; life is there to be enjoyed - let's enjoy it & not try to curtail others' enjoyment.

[Craig]

The reason that the Gravel Trap was introduced originally was that we were getting lots of complaints from users who were becoming tired of all the off topic posts in the main forums. Rather than deleting them we created an off topic forum for them to be moved to and this took on a life of it's own and become the Gravel Trap that you know today.

The Marshals forum is relatively new and is getting to the stage now that there are a number of off topic posts cropping up which are a little tiresome for those who are regular visitors to the forum and who only post when they read something of direct interest to them. These 'in jokes' are obviously of great amusement to those who understand them but it does cause a 'us and them' element and these people who are not central to the forum will start to feel edged out - I should know as I am starting to get bored with this forum myself, having been a real follower of it previously.

All we are saying is that this is a marshalling forum and we want it to remain of interest to everyone if it is to thrive - the fans, drivers and team members as well as those Tango men and women themselves. In the same way as an off topic post would be moved from the BTCC or F1 forums to the Gravel Trap I don't think it is going over the top to suggest the same happens here.

We have learned a lot over the past four years of running a succesful community - a hell of a lot - some by luck but much by learning from our mistakes. One major lesson that we have learned is that we should endeavour to keep discussion within a given forum as tight as we can and move anything that would best fit within a different forum.

Please make our job easier by starting any off topic posts in the Gravel Trap.