Grp C/Grp A – "Tricks of the Trade" (Merged)

[jd yort]

Originally Posted by Razor

Wasn't there a thread floating around in the recent past about this kind of stuff?

Yes. Done before and in quite some detail.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111304

[Mixer]

Allegedly regarding Volvo 240T homologation:

The cars were lined up in the USA for inspection by the FIA, the first row of cars ( approx. 30) was fitted with the Volvo Grp A competition kit rated at 225 hp @ 1.05 bar. These cars had the special parts, rear wing, water injection( the extra four injectors), large aluminum end tank intercooler,"220" cam, bigger radiator and turbo. The next couple of rows of cars had the competition kit in the trunk. It is rumored that not all the cars had the Grp A kit in the trunk as there were less than a couple hundred produced. After inspection the 30 or so cars with the competition kit fitted were shipped back to Europe because they would not pass the E.P.A requirements in that state of tune. The kits in the trunks of the cars were returned to Volvo competition, both the 30 cars and the kits were to be sold through the European dealer network. The remaining cars were sold in the USA by Volvo of north America.

[anthony81901]

Alan Heaphy admitted recently that WGR fitted a device that dropped a couple of litres of water in front of the rear wheels at Bathurst 1995 allowing Wayne Gardner to charge to the lead from the 2nd row of the grid.

[Mixer]

How does water improve traction, surely it was something other than water?

[Reload]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

Alan Heaphy admitted recently that WGR fitted a device that dropped a couple of litres of water in front of the rear wheels at Bathurst 1995 allowing Wayne Gardner to charge to the lead from the 2nd row of the grid.

I would have thought that Heaphy would have been happy for Captain Chaos to just get off the line without causing any dramas ?

[David Towe]

And the sad news is that this some of this sort of stuff still goes on in Historic Group A/C, but to a lesser extent.

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by David Towe

And the sad news is that this some of this sort of stuff still goes on in Historic Group A/C, but to a lesser extent.

Name and shame.

[mtpanorama]

Originally Posted by Rob Bailey

Name and shame.

VL commodores running wheels that are too big and throttle bodies that are not period correct.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Rob Bailey

Name and shame.

Not a hope in hell, I've been told!!!

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by David Towe

And the sad news is that this some of this sort of stuff still goes on in Historic Group A/C, but to a lesser extent.

whether small or big cheating is still cheating. you should tell us so that we know who should be banned and we'll know that some of the winners have not been winning fairly.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by David Towe

And the sad news is that this some of this sort of stuff still goes on in all forms racing, but to a lesser extent.

Fixed ... It always has and always will, motor racing is competitive and man will always look to creative means to improve performance while interpreting the rules just as creatively, you're free to put some of your cash up and protest at a race meeting if you want and take a stand against these cheats...

[David Towe]

st00ge, I realise you've made it obvious but please don't modify my post and post the modified version as if it was my quote.

[David Towe]

The ex Gibson Bluebird still has the boost adjuster behind the ashtray.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by David Towe

st00ge, I realise you've made it obvious but please don't modify my post and post the modified version as if it was my quote.

Your objection is duly noted but I can't promise anything, this is the internet after all.

PS please take a bit of a joke less seriously...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by David Towe

And the sad news is that this some of this sort of stuff still goes on in Historic Group A/C, but to a lesser extent.

Now that's funny!

I don't know why they would bother.

[KA]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Now that's funny!

I don't know why they would bother.

I guess it makes for an interesting dilemma if you've got a historic touring car and want to keep it as close to original spec as you can- I mean, if it was bent in period, do you run it as it was, or modify it so it's legal.....?

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by KA

I guess it makes for an interesting dilemma if you've got a historic touring car and want to keep it as close to original spec as you can- I mean, if it was bent in period, do you run it as it was, or modify it so it's legal.....?

Excellent point, if you make it "legal" it is no longer "original".

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Backagain

Excellent point, if you make it "legal" it is no longer "original".

If you make it "legal" it becomes illegal because it is no longer "original".

I just love historic racing rules!

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by St00ge

Your objection is duly noted but I can't promise anything, this is the internet after all.

PS please take a bit of a joke less seriously...

I have no problem with a joke, I'm rarely serious anyway, but please don't modify my quotes.

Originally Posted by Backagain

Excellent point, if you make it "legal" it is no longer "original".

Interesting question that many competitors in Group A/C still dispute. The ones who's car was cheating in the day want the right to continue the cheating today claiming it was "original". And those of us who's cars weren't cheating in the day want cars to run to the homologated rules. The dispute goes on to a degree.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Now that's funny!

I don't know why they would bother.

The cheating these days takes the form of stroker engines, illegal suspension components or set up, illegal diffs and heads, more than the fuel tank capacity, fire extinguisher cheats of the day. With the shorter races we do these days, carrying an extra 10 litres of fuel is a hinderence not a benefit.

[Mixer]

It doesn't matter what your racing series is like, people will cheat. In HQs there was a prominent and very successful racer and I bought his car when he moved to another category.

Dropped an oil pump first time out and had to rebuild it, found 5 things in the motor which were illegal, or so I thought. Turns out the registered engine builders/sealers have measurement tolerances which are not in the rule book. So the engine was built precisely to the book + tolerances. There was also funky stuff like internal manifold coatings, hand finished internals etc.

Had always thought his car sounded differently to everybody elses. I put it right and it cost about 10% of the horsepower or thereabouts.

Given that we're talking about all this in a 202, if I was going to spend all that money and dyno time I'd be in Commodore Cup or something more fun, but some people would rather be king of the kids.

And I never finished higher than 8th in that car after rebuilding the motor. Mind you I forced some rule clarifications of my own, in the chassis/suspension department, not the engine.

[Sultan]

Mixer, I agree, even at club level it's amazing the lengths people will go to.

The nitrous in cages are part of Qld club racing folklore in Geminis & HQ's.. I used to race F Vees a while back & a favourite word bandied about was 'interpretation'... :-D

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Sultan

Mixer, I agree, even at club level it's amazing the lengths people will go to.

The nitrous in cages are part of Qld club racing folklore in Geminis & HQ's.. I used to race F Vees a while back & a favourite word bandied about was 'interpretation'... :-D

Agree with you and Mixer on this. I've personally never understood people who cheat as I don't see the point - if I won by cheating I wouldn't get the satisfaction from it but maybe that's just me.

Smart interpretation & being clever I don't really classify as cheating but NOs in cages etc, yeah, that's blatant.

Thing is, there are many people in motorsport who see cheating & fooling the authorities as a core part of the enjoyment of competing and for them, win lose or bust, getting away with the cheat is a big part of why they stay in the game.

I remember a well known driver from some time ago telling me on the quiet how he'd got away with a particular cheat. When I explained to him how that particular cheat would in fact make the car go slower in some situations, he was pretty quiet but then cheered up coz he'd still "beaten" the authorities by running it.

[david5]

I may have already posted this, when I crewed for one well know privateer in a Sierra we used to stuff some rolled up Fire fighting gloves down the side of the filler hose betwwen the tank shell and the bladder to reduce the amount the bladder could expand to bring it's capacity back into legal size.

[nkr]

The championship winning Shell Falcons of Johnson and Bowe had bonnets that were one inch shorter than standard to allow for better airflow into the engine's intake.

The results stood that year although DJR were forced to run the normal length bonnets once the irregularity was discovered.

this is not correct as i still do have a few of these bonnets in stock and they are the same as a road car bonnet they were made of ligth gauge steel and no sealers that was all

[nkr]

People wondered how Moff ran bigger rubber on the back of his coupes than anyone else. Apparently he pumped up the petrol tank untill they popped which narrowed the tank & then used a combination of the genuine inner rear guard panels swapped left front halve to right rear & vice versa, which gave him a mini tubbed rear area & didnt break the rules as no metal had been cut or added & used genuine parts.

not correct never did that the q/panels had lips folded and pumped on the xb xc was made with a even wider rear wheelarch as per homolation and they checked them at sandown