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Old 7 Jun 2010, 20:04 (Ref:2706269)   #16
leonidas
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leonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridleonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Realistically I don't think there's much you can do about the two championship situation. Its been debated so much but unless one of the organisers is impelled to make a change either by drivers or struggling entries I can't see much happening.

The Modifield issue is easier. One could move to Div1a rules or just take action to make it much cheaper by banning the more expensive modified bits, exotic GT cars etc.

There also needs to be a cheaper entry level formula for the main MSA series. I advocated a stock 4wd class on here a while ago. Swifts have been more successful than I thought they would be but they aren't cheap or desperately exciting. If it carries on it needs to develop into a cheaper 'modern stock hatch' concept. There just isn't the money around at the moment.
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Old 7 Jun 2010, 21:32 (Ref:2706338)   #17
chasing cars
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Originally Posted by leonidas View Post
There also needs to be a cheaper entry level formula for the main MSA series. I advocated a stock 4wd class on here a while ago. Swifts have been more successful than I thought they would be but they ain't cheap or desperately exciting. If it carries on it needs to develop into a cheaper 'modern stock hatch' concept. There just isn't the money around at the moment.
Could not agree more, the stock hatch concept was a good one except it became dominated by a 25yr old car, surely something similar but only allowing more modern machinery would work though i wouldnt want it to become a saxo dominated championship either.

In France they have div 4 which is very popular & gets a good variety of well turned out fairly standard looking cars (of course they may not be as standard as they look), i dont know the regs or cost to compete in the class but its certainly less than div 1a and super modifieds.
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Old 7 Jun 2010, 22:25 (Ref:2706376)   #18
MESHGA
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Personally i think all new budding drivers look at the current classes and work out how much it would cost and look at the whole Rallycross scene in the uk and just go off to do something else as if your not either a die hard driver/fan or born into the sport you aint going to get a look in!
The way its going the only class that saved uk Rallycross like it or not will be lost for ever by the few big car drivers and their ideas.
I know we are all ment to go to meetings to see the super cars but i would of like to done a poll a few years back to ask what racing specs enjoyed the most !
I for 1 loved the challenge of making it to the A final out of around 50 cars just in stock hatch .
I know of a few drivers from super cars tried stock hatch and all failed bar Tony Bardy , the others just said we was all mad ! No we just had balls not big pockets!!!!!!
BRING BACK GOOD STANDARD CAR RACING (with a few mods) and no bs
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Old 7 Jun 2010, 22:57 (Ref:2706392)   #19
chunder
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The problem with that is that rallycross boomed with non standard car racing. Not one make and production based racing.

Even before the glory days of the late 80's early 90's the main reason it was popular was Mk2 Escorts and the like. The whole sport was desigend around rally cars running on a split gravel,tar track, not Stock Hatch!

And take a look at what classes are oversubscribed on the continent? Supernational, in various guises.

You have f and rwd cars that are fairly standard, so Saabs, Volvo's Opels etc, then the 2.4 class runing more power and better tyres, then the main class running super modified cars and mega tyres, engines etc. the classes that are unpopular are Div1, Div1A and the insanity that is Div2! Let's make a class for a car that NOONE ACTUALLY MAKES!! Dumbasses

The Swedes and Norwegians don't see the need to run one make series, and are quite happy allowing old cars to run in their series?

I don't advocate going back in time, but bad decisions were made a long time ago that destroyed the fabric of modified racing in UK rallycross.

The Nova Challenge was great coz it brought people in and the things crashed a lot! They lookd the part and were fast.

Sorry but Stock Hatch looked like rookie bangers most of the time and I can pay and watch blokes do that properly every Saturday night thanks!! And they wiouldnt get a penny of my hard earned coz I hate them!!
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 12:09 (Ref:2706629)   #20
dcdesign
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dcdesign should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Problem with British modified, is the freedom of weight... how can you imagine a fair battle between a supercharged 1800 weighing 750kg, and a atmosferic 2.0 weighing 750kg.... and in such atmosphere, you end up with some guys with lightweight insane costly cars battling for the championship, ans some guys with cheaper cars for getting the entry a bit filled up...

Add a weight penalty to a number of capacity (with charging co-efficiŽnt), for instance this numbers (pilot and equipment included)

-1000cc 770kg RWD 720kg FWD
-1400cc 860kg RWD 810kg FWD
-1600cc 950kg RWD 900kg FWD
-2000cc 1030kg RWD 980kg FWD
-2500cc 1130kg RWD 1080kg FWD
-3000cc 1210kg RWD 1160kg FWD
-3500cc 1300kg RWD 1250kg FWD
-4000cc 1380kg RWD 1330kg FWD
+4000cc 1470kg RWD 1420kg FWD

And because of the high speed tracks in the British rallycross, you may add some extra advantage for FWD cars...
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 14:21 (Ref:2706698)   #21
AndyS
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Interesting debate, I like Chasing Cars suggestion for a class structure, it's fairly similar to the French regs in some respects. Leonidas is right about the need for an entry class, 4WD stock is another possibility but I prefer the French style Div4 if cost effective enough. Not a fan of one make classes but another one to consider is maybe the BMW Mini class proposed a couple of years ago. It seemed cheap as chips, there's a ready supply of the things and they are relevant to motoring today. Still prefer the other two suggestions but thought I'd mention it.

As to Chunder's comment on which class people enjoy the most, my vote would always go with Super National. The Scandinavians have that spot on and the action is superb. On the occasion there are big grids in the British Isles I've never been dispointed. I'm thinking Superprix pre '08 and the racing was pretty good in Nutts Corner recently if you saw it. Also quite impressed with the French Div 3. I think Chasing Cars class structure suggestion would incorporate both of these. I think the key for all classes is keeping them spectacular, the cars interesting looking but affordable at the same time.
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 16:27 (Ref:2706770)   #22
schanche
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The classes and Divisions is another topic that we could all put the organisers to rights on! But for me it all went wrong when the ERC Introduced the 1400 cup to be used as step up into the two main Divisions.
Personally I think it should revert back to Supercars Renamed from Div 1 more power alot more restrictions, circuits and saftey has vast Improved since those dark days after all the spectacle of supercars are the looks and the sheer power which I think is obviously lacking,Supernational/Supermodified whatever one the Organisers wish to choose but speciffacly rear wheel drive 2.0 engines! Turbo or Normal but resticted by wieght, tuners now days can extract all sorts of power and rear wheel is always entertaining just ask the Swedes and Norewegians.Each Country with its own championship should have these two main classes as standard allowing whoever to compete in the ERC events the Pinnacle of Rallycross,and then the feeder class if you like could be the one make championships like the Swifts Cup,Logan Cup,Fiesta Cup.Too many different classes countries running different rules has in my oppinion restricted Rallycross for two many years,take all the different options away have Two Main classes the feeder class. Car preparation now days and the skills people have picked up and the sheer proffesionalism of the drivers would provide each country hosting a round of the European series with a large entry of there own "nation" to compete with the regular competitors,and then the one make championships like the Swifts/Logans/Fiestas could be the support class at each ERC round showcasing each countries Feeder class or beginner if you like.
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 16:49 (Ref:2706779)   #23
jimmynova
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Originally Posted by leonidas View Post
Realistically I don't think there's much you can do about the two championship situation. Its been debated so much but unless one of the organisers is impelled to make a change either by drivers or struggling entries I can't see much happening.

.

I heard a rumour that peter stott had a meeting with lhmc proposing amalgamating the 2 championships but peter stott wasn't interested. Don't know how true this is though! Anyone got any idea what is happening with the RXOC as it seems to be running out of venues to use and looks like it could be going down the pan.

I agree that a budget class that is regulated right needs to be sorted because i think alot of people want to try rallycross but don't believe they can be competitive in stock hatch because they see people coming in with relatively standard cars and they are left trailing at the back and then after a season seem to dissapear due to getting disheartened.
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 19:00 (Ref:2706855)   #24
MESHGA
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MESHGA should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
1 every body has to start some where ! I did 20 + years ago and i know of many like me who didnt get down hearted just found out how to get the best out of what you get and even if you got the best car you need track time to be up with the best!
I dont totally agree with some of you re mods or what ever as the best way to go !
Ok stock hatch maybe nearly dead but a new series but not costly for standard cars is needed , we need to not get to swept away with the current sucess as it could fall apart and remember sh sayed rallycross not so long ago
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 19:32 (Ref:2706879)   #25
chunder
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Dream world!! rallycross started as a modified sport and survived and prospered as a modified sport. I have no issue with SH, but to say it saved the sport is folly!

Since standard cars were introduced new people went into that instead of into better structured modified classes as they did before or have gone elsewhere.

Leading to a dearth of decenf secondhand modified cars! And becaise of this a totalluy messed up structure which forces them into stupid classes as organisers clamour for anyone to stay in rallycross!
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 21:28 (Ref:2706939)   #26
MESHGA
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Oh but it did! im not the one doing the dreaming!
how the hell do you think those meetings during 2002 to decently where financed?
Hard earned cash from people who loved to race but cant aford a mod car thats how .
Not having a go mate but take away S/H and what would the meetings been like if happened at all? I tell you very large gaps between the 20 odd cars entry
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 21:30 (Ref:2706940)   #27
Barrie
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Barrie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Rallycross certainly needs tidying up, firstly I'd cut the number of championships 1 GB & IRE championship for starters, France, Norden (all Scandanavian countries), Central European, and Eastern European Championships. Thats just five Championships, 3 standard FIA classes Div 1, up to 1600 fwd, over 1600 rwd,non turbo with regulations and homologation. These 3 classes will be eligible for the European Rallycross Championship. Other classes are then open to Championship organisers discretion, named support classes.
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 21:48 (Ref:2706944)   #28
dcdesign
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For national championships, you can't work with only EURO-classes.... many guys coming from club-level rallycross, don't got big budgets, but they want to step up, take one step at a time...

They mostly have a overaged car, with decent power, but not out of engines following the international rules... 240Bhp out of a 1600cc is very costly, while 240Bhp out of a 2000cc or a 2500cc maybe, is rather do-able...

Also, stock-classes aren't the solution... as you see the stockhatch-class, there are big differences between the fastest, and the slowest... and because of the limited tuning, those differences are made through cheap parts, and very costly parts... also, many of the rallycrossdrivers are mechanics themselves... if you're family has a big BMW-dealership, then racing with a CitroŽn or a Peugeot, or a Swift, isn't an option...

Just get a free class, like modifieds, but make sure it is do-able to take part in it... If the class is ruled by some lightweight builds, with around 300Bhp, then i'm not going to think about spending 20k for building a BMW E30 M3, just for driving at the back... In Belgium, some years ago, there was a guy, with a stock BMW M5 E34, he only broke out the interior and welded in a rollcage... he was able to score podiums with that car... Because his concurrents with the big modified bmw's, had around the same capacity, and the same minimal weight...
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 23:05 (Ref:2706979)   #29
WJM
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What you see on the continent is that a lot of drivers come in with a near standard car. Then after a while they get the hang of it and gradually save for more mods. Their car becomes more valuable and perhaps sometime they could move to a different car/class. They literally grow into the sport.
If you have standard classes you can't "grow". You can either spent a lot of money to get the expensive parts or you must find a way to step up to Supermods/Swifts.

The next point was also mentioned by dcdesign and I agree with that in that I think standard classes are aimed at the wrong kind of crowd. On the continent you see a lot of guys that are driving for the social part as much as for the competition part. They are often mechanics, they are driving their favourite brand of car and enjoy working and developing it, and most importantly they are there for the longterm. These are the drivers that form the core of your racemeetings. At the moment there is nothing for these people to start Rallycross in Britain.
Stockhatch has a massive turnover and not a lot of drivers step-up to different classes, so it's obviously not attracting any longterm commitment from drivers. If there is going to be a new class I would not recommend another Stockhatch.

A point mentioned by chunder which I also agree with is that Rallycross must build on classes that are used in other motorsport disciplines. If you look at the succesful championships in Europe: French Div4 is equal to the popular rallycar class FA and also includes kit-cars just like in rally. Div3 is the T3F class from ice-racing and is also used in Autocross. In Belgium all the classes are build on Group A which is of course also a rallyclass. In the Nordic countries the supernational class is also used in rallies and hillclimbs. Even Euro Div1a is derived from Super1600/A6 rallycars.
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Old 8 Jun 2010, 23:08 (Ref:2706981)   #30
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First off I think there must be not to many different classes, as this results in low entrylists, like Div 2 is at this moment. First off all the classes must not change to much, as did Div 2 in the past.

Supercars:
I still believe the 45 mm has to go, especially since they weigh so much. Why limit the supercars while super 1600 is hardly limited? What everybody is saying about 1,9 sec to 60 mph and comparing with F1. The cars still seem slow once they are on the move (50 mph on). Launch control should go to, bring back wheelspin and unequal starts. Limit the use of high-tech materials. Headsets should go to. For the rest keep it as it, no point in going back to spaceframes, this makes all cars worthless.

Super 1600:
Keep it as it is. You could buy a rallycar or build your own (like Snoeck did). Only ditch the launchcontrol and maybe sequential gearboxes.

Current Div 2:
Well this is the black sheep. Personally I think it is stupid to make an affordable class when you allow RWD modifications. Especially as FWD will be bigger due to European emissions. This means you need money or need to be very handy. I'd rather seen Super 2000 kitcars, like the old Xsara's, Clio's, 306's, Ibiza's, Golf's and Megane's.

European Championship:
To be honest maybe only Supercars and Super 1600 should be egible for the European Championship, no Div 2. And maybe other class structures should only be introduced for National clubman racing. Maybe there you should be allowed to drive whatever you can afford or build? This works for rallying too!
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