Lotus 49

[canadair]

I am trying to locate technical information on the 49 and 49B. Can anyone point me in the direction of a source for such information please?
Team Lotus is hesitant to divulge any drawings and such, but there must be other sources out there.
any suggestions??

[josvandeperre]

there must be loads of books or old motorsports covering this car - what specifically do you need to know ? four wheels monocoque very successful hewland gb & dfv engine -about a dozen built

[canadair]

I am trying to locate the technical info on the car, regards a possible replica. I have found that the short DFV engines are available, and with just the info I have found to date, ( including Michael Oliver`s excellent book)
I believe the monocoque is quite straight fwd, but I am just trying to determine if anyone has tried this before.
Pretty much everything else these days is replicated, at least in the aviation field, ( look at the amount of 30`s era racers that have been built)
I think that if one was to build a replica, this is the car to do, it was the most prolific, and at least to me the most beautiful of the F1 cars.
But, another question, would the car ever be accepted? would it be eligible to race in any field? with no provenance would it just be a one off.
questions questions!!!

[josvandeperre]

Your question just became far more interesting ! You would not get FIA papers so their series would not be open to you - there are some one-off races and/or demonstrations like at Angouleme (some years) where almost anything in the way of a replica with a real DFV should be welcome - not sure if there's a non-FIA series for historic F1 - many are very hung-up on authenticity although quite how original any F1 car is is open to question - might there also be copyright on the design ?

[allenbrown]

Two replicas have been built so far and a third is on its way. One of the owners is an occasional poster here and may want to say more.

I can confirm that it would not get papers.

Allen

[Lee Janotta]

Find an original steering wheel, replicate the rest, and claim you "rebuilt" the car? I've seen worse!

[canadair]

"Find an original steering wheel, replicate the rest, and claim you "rebuilt" the car?"
well again, relating to aviation world, of which I admit I am far more familiar, how many times have we seen a certain type ressurected, case in point, Spitfires built from a dataplate, then claiming to be the actual aircraft, "restored"
now I do not really agree with this in spirit, as it seems on the surface to be strictly a money concern, as in making it.
But, saying that most times they spend more than the finished product is worth anyway. OK, nuff about airplanes.
Now regards the 49, Allenbrown, you mention 2 done, 1 on the way, do any of those claim originality? I understand from the Oliver book that one was done with "as many original parts, uprights, etc as possible" again it is still classed a replica.
I guess the other point stopping this is the extremely small number of cars actually built, and the fact each is accounted for in some way or another, even though they seem to have been combined over the years.
By the way, regards the copyright question you mention Jos, I wrote to Mr Chapman, he was not keen on a replica, and therefore not forthcoming with drawings and such, I can understand his reluctance, as he is both running a business, and preserving the marque, so fair enough, but I do feel there must be another way to legitimately gather the information, and at least determine the actual work and parts required.
Sorry, that got a little long!

[allenbrown]

At least one claims to be "real" or "genuine". I guess they would avoid the word "original" but who knows.

Whatever they claim, it ain't getting papers.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Would it be fair to say that the only part of the "original" car that you need own - in order to distinguish a replica from the real thing - would be the chassis plate?

Chris

[canadair]

I would tend to agree, a dataplate would certainly be a key component. But in the case of the 49, with a total of 12 built, and 5 written off, 7 accounted for, this is probably not a reality, although I imagine that one does exist in a pile of parts somewhere.
But does the dataplate have to be the deciding point?
Allen, your extremely comprehensive site suggests more than a passing interest in such things, what do you think determines the identity? and for that matter, who is the person or group doing the determination?
Does copyright extend past a name, and to the actual design? I would be almost certain that Classic team Lotus has some legal hold over the name, and designation 49, but can they control the actual design? possibly not, but this is a legal definition.
Lets hope the fellow mentioned currently building the Lotus 49,
( reproduction, replica, original) checks in, I would be extremely interested in hearing his views on this, and how he has gone about building the car.

[Chris Townsend]

There is of course an English legal precedent for copyright in race car designs - they are held by the team that originates the car, not even by the designer.

See Shadow v Arrows 1978

If Classic Team Lotus can demonstrate legal continuity with the Lotus company as configured by Chapman, I'd suggest that they do control the design rights.

[Roger H]

I believe that following the outcome of the 'B.M.C. versus Armstrong Patents' case it is possible to reproduce all the parts to the original spec but they must not be called or labelled Lotus parts only 'replacement parts'. It was this judgement that opened the way for pattern parts such as exhausts and shockers as sold by QuickFit and others of that ilk.

[allenbrown]

Does that mean you can build a Lotus 49 as long as you don't call it a Lotus 49?

[Armco Bender]

as you don't call it a Lotus 49?

If nothing else the Lotus name would be a registered trade mark anyway wouldn't it?.But probably a Sutol 49 would be OK,with a carbon fibre tub ?.

How far back does the patent go back on a car 50 years?.

[canadair]

an alike situation
Carroll Shelby vs the replica cobra market
Shelby claimed design rights and sued, I believe FFR, the biggest manufacturer of replica Cobras, end result Shelby owned the name Cobra, but not the design, FFR changed the designation to the FFR Roadster, and continue to sell bags of them.
I would imagine the same applies here, Lotus, or now Classic team Lotus can claim ownership on the name, but probably have no claims on the shape.
Not that anyone is going to produce any number of Lotus 49`s by any other name, but a one off project would probably be possible.
Any idea as to how many parts on the car were individual Lotus manufacture, IE uprights, any castings, and what may have been "off the shelf"

[JGM]

A very good book about the Lotus 49 was written by Michael Oliver and published in 1999 by Veloce Publishing.

[canadair]

agreed JGM, I have that book, excellent content, and writing style. I also have just about every bit of 49 material I could get over the years, the Tamiya 1/12th models, ( rather toylike) video, and copies of old 49 articles, now I just need the drawings, oh and a DFV