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Old 29 Jun 2017, 04:26 (Ref:3747725)   #4951
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Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage View Post
On the chassis side, I wish they'd extend them 100-150mm in width so they look proportional. It can be justified on grounds of extending side impact structures and (for the manufacturers) giving them more room for packaging.
Are you willing to accept 190mph trap speeds while you're at it?
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 04:56 (Ref:3747730)   #4952
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The 2000mm wide LMP1s, even with the smaller engines, recorded the fastest Porsche Curves sector speeds and were still easily going 205mph. Which that's not much slower than the current LMP1s without a slip stream.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 05:27 (Ref:3747731)   #4953
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I see your cheeky reply on twitter. Might I suggest sprucing up your account to look more, is professional the right word? I'm not sure.
I don't want my picture on there, I guess I could use a sportscar avatar though

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The 2000mm wide LMP1s, even with the smaller engines, recorded the fastest Porsche Curves sector speeds and were still easily going 205mph. Which that's not much slower than the current LMP1s without a slip stream.
They had a lot less hybrid/power back then as well.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 09:08 (Ref:3747761)   #4954
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Granted, the whole hybrid thing would make a lot of sense to me if the systems were powerful enough and had enough juice so that the only thing that the ICE would have to do is serve as a generator. Now that would be awesome. That would, both on the track and on the road, serve as a perfect halfway house between pure EV and non-hybrid while eliminating both's major problems, range on EV, and emissions/fuel economy for the ICE.

However, with that being said, on the racing end, if 8MJ hybrids have proven to be expensive and borderline difficult to package in LMP1s with their space constraints as of now, imagine what those issues would be with a hybrid system powerful enough that the only reason you'd need an ICE of any type would be to be a simple generator.
Well, what you're suggesting is a series hybrid (cr Fisker Karma). The main packaging concern for electrics is not the MGU(s) its/themself/ves (<< wow ) but the batteries, although fitting the front motor on the TS050 is a nightmare for sure. With the ICE solely on generator duty, energy is far more readily available as needed, reducing the need for large battery packs. However, there becomes a need to package the engine-battery MGU, and this would cause some potentially odd issues with acceleration vs. top end and regulatory 'interpretation' that I don't want to expound as this is already going to a really long post.


tl;dr- it may work, but it could also be TS020 trunk=fuel tank level nonsense

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Are you willing to accept 190mph trap speeds while you're at it?
We needed something to counter active aero's speed increase.

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I don't want my picture on there, I guess I could use a sportscar avatar though
Like this, perhaps.
Odd comparison, I know. I don't use Twitter myself, so I found about what I wanted from clicking similar repeatedly.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 10:13 (Ref:3747769)   #4955
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Thing is that if you're relying primarily on EV power and you just need the engine to drive a generator, you can probably get away with a very small engine. Not like a single cylinder lawnmower engine, but for sure something a lot smaller than even the Porsche 2.0 V4. One issue is the MGUs, as you'd need them to drive all four wheels full time, or at least two wheels full time.

I don't think that's the main problem, provided that the MGUs are reliable, which electric motors usually are from a mechanical stand point until they wear out. The problem is, as mentioned, battery packs. Assuming that battery technology remains static (which it won't), you're probably going to need a larger battery pack to do a lap around LM unless you have a very efficient and powerful generator. Having the engine drive a generator should at least alleviate the problem, but won't cure it unless it can recharge the battery pack quickly. It'd also help if the batteries have a very deep energy density and can hold a big charge for a long period.

As mentioned, the Fisker Karma (conventional four cylinder engine) and an Audi A1 concept car (Wankel rotary engine) did use an ICE to power a generator to allow the cars to run for long distances and at relatively high speeds on EV mode. So, in theory, it can be done, at least with road cars. On race cars, especially current LMP1s, I'm not sure that you can fit a larger battery pack to make sure something like this is practical, not without a weight increase (probable larger battery pack, the fact that the generator and engine combo will probably weigh as much or maybe more than current engine/gearbox packages), and maybe making the cars wider to allow for the use of wider tubs for packaging reasons.

As I said, that would be a concept that I can get behind, because I don't think we can go pure EV unless the whole world is urbanized, and there's a push to still become less reliant on pure ICE technology in the future due to emissions and conserving oil. Granted, cars are cleaner than ever and more fuel efficient than ever, but there's more of them, and there's still a ton of older cars on the road that pollute more and chug more fuel.

Even now, Volkswagen Group (though their Audi division mostly) and BMW are being pressured by the Bavarian government to further reduce gasoline engine and especially diesel engine emissions, which Audi/VAG and BMW are planning to do with ECU upgrades on Euro 5 and Euro 6 cars currently on the road. Of course, this is to avoid restrictions on cars in big cities and increases on taxes.

Last edited by chernaudi; 29 Jun 2017 at 10:19.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 11:29 (Ref:3747778)   #4956
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No one noticed corrected fuel flow numbers in the LMP1 technical regulations?
http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/118

Fuel flow has been droped from 80.6 to 80.2., will this stay till the next year's LeMans? With such a minor change there could be another record lap next year.

The more "electric" the hybrid is the more sense is to make it a series hybrid. But that makes it behave like CVT and FIA is afraid of them from the 90s, still banned today.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 11:33 (Ref:3747780)   #4957
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I told forgot to mention it in my over long post, but the InMotion IM01 G56-hopeful is/was/shall be powered by a rotary series hybrid setup.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3747784)   #4958
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No one noticed corrected fuel flow numbers in the LMP1 technical regulations?
http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/118

Fuel flow has been droped from 80.6 to 80.2., will this stay till the next year's LeMans? With such a minor change there could be another record lap next year.
At least the original idea was the do the changes post-LM and freeze them for a year.
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Old 29 Jun 2017, 12:40 (Ref:3747785)   #4959
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I told forgot to mention it in my over long post, but the InMotion IM01 G56-hopeful is/was/shall be powered by a rotary series hybrid setup.
they are verry much still working on something for g56. they have a single seater proof of concept now that they will use to further development.
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Old 30 Jun 2017, 03:10 (Ref:3747874)   #4960
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they are verry much still working on something for g56. they have a single seater proof of concept now that they will use to further development.
I think their concept is what the future of lmp1 should be. Not bigger, taller, wider cockpits. It doesn't have to look like an f1 with fenders and a canopy but that's a lot more futuristic than what the cars are looking like now and will look like soon.
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Old 30 Jun 2017, 03:28 (Ref:3747878)   #4961
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I think their concept is what the future of lmp1 should be. Not bigger, taller, wider cockpits. It doesn't have to look like an f1 with fenders and a canopy but that's a lot more futuristic than what the cars are looking like now and will look like soon.
I disagree in that, call me old fashioned, but I prefer my sports prototypes to look solid. While from an aerodynamic standpoint I understand why they do it, I do not like the aesthetic of these channels going through the front and out the side (the Ligier JSP217 from behind is especially noticeable). I'd rather the front seem more 'road car esque', I suppose.
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Old 30 Jun 2017, 20:33 (Ref:3748028)   #4962
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I get that, but these are prototypes, not road cars. There's a GT class for those imo. It doesn't have to be f1 like, but why make the cockpit wider and taller when you can just move the driver towards the middle and solve the problems. I guess that's not going to happen because of tradition.
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Old 30 Jun 2017, 21:19 (Ref:3748031)   #4963
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I get that, but these are prototypes, not road cars. There's a GT class for those imo. It doesn't have to be f1 like, but why make the cockpit wider and taller when you can just move the driver towards the middle and solve the problems. I guess that's not going to happen because of tradition.
Back when prototype meant prototype for a road car . . .

OK, seriously, the P1 teams might be pushing back against that because of ease of egress and ingress. Further, at least Porsche at one point was (allegedly) packaging mechanical bits in the cockpit beside the driver.

Another thought has come upon me (I'm a man of many bad ideas and the occasional decent one ) that they could, without sacrificing the frontal area, lengthen the cars by some amount. Again, packaging space increases (although on a different axis) and the canopies can be made (probably regulatorily) to sweep back more gracefully. They might look more elegant that way.

Of course, the downside is either a longer wheelbase which is more stable but lacks the change of direction they may need to get through particularly dodgy traffic situations, or longer overhangs, and we all know how that went last time.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 14:31 (Ref:3748121)   #4964
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Originally posted in the IMSA 2018 thread:

Both IMSA and the ACO have screwed up the prototype stuff really bad since 2014. My solution on the ACO end is let semi-works teams into LMP1 privateer, since in the past (certainly in LMP 900) we had what IMSA and the ACO held to be privateer teams running with a huge amount of factory support.

On the IMSA end, just base DPI around being a professional driver line up favoring class with ACO LMP1 privateer being the rough performance target and open tire, and have LMP2 be modeled along ACO guidelines as far as pro-am driver line ups and maybe still be spec tire.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 14:46 (Ref:3748125)   #4965
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Originally posted in the IMSA 2018 thread:

Both IMSA and the ACO have screwed up the prototype stuff really bad since 2014. My solution on the ACO end is let semi-works teams into LMP1 privateer, since in the past (certainly in LMP 900) we had what IMSA and the ACO held to be privateer teams running with a huge amount of factory support.

On the IMSA end, just base DPI around being a professional driver line up favoring class with ACO LMP1 privateer being the rough performance target and open tire, and have LMP2 be modeled along ACO guidelines as far as pro-am driver line ups and maybe still be spec tire.
The DPIs were built to have P2 performance levels. Thus I am wondering how much more GM, Nissan, and mostly Mazda (and Honda & VAG too if those rumors are true) can get out of their current packages and how that compares to the speeds of the P1-Ps.
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