[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The sports car World Championship has always been a manufacturer supported series. If you were running a privateer focused championship it wouldn't be the WEC, the travel and marketing is far too expensive.

After all those years of trying to balance the needs of factory diesels and petrol privateers in one category the ACO and FIA made a clear divide between customer car racing with LMP2 in regional series and manufacturer/constructor based racing with LMP1 in WEC to allow themselves more freedom in raising the top international sports car category to something "world championship" level in speed and technology without destroying the smaller scale series by using the same regulations. They knew the costs would skyrocket with that approach, that's why they split things up. The new LMP2 cars should actually be more powerful and quicker than the privateer LMP1 cars when the WEC was created, to give you an idea of where we sit.

Also before you completely crap on the idea of this world championship remember that back in the "good old days" before WEC and LMP1H you were lucky if any manufacturer ran a full schedule in any series. It's not perfect but the international profile and competition level of sports car racing is much higher than what it was a few years ago even without Audi.

I hope you are correct that the French "spec'' P2 cars will be more powerful and quicker than the current P1 privateers (you may want to check the top end speeds at Le Mans and other tracks before you make that comment though) A "spec" class certainly does not inspire a "World Championship" status, in my opinion.

If either Toyota or Porsche quite, we are back to 1992 all over again. That does somewhat show, how clever the ACO really are

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by CTD

I wonder if it is possible to balance both the Hybrids with the Lightweights!?
If the hybrid goes, I'm sure that Toyota will do the same.

Should be try. Maybe something like LMP 900 and LMP 675. Also could be used to control the costs of hybrid cars giving more advantages to non-hybrids if you see these costs go haywire as now.

[TF110]

Rebellion ran at 800kg a year or two ago, it didn't help. They need more development, and power, better aero and low weight. If the ACO decide to let a lightweight car in, they'll need to balance it with a fuel flow or something so that the hybrid or alternative fueled cars are still worth it. They're not just going to drop that from their rules. Porsche and Toyota are here because that's what they want. Better to keep on the current path with reduced costs than to alienate who you have now hoping someone likes your new rules.

And to all those who think one of the remaining two factories will just up and quit, Porsche have committed to at least 2018, Toyota the same. By then there should be new lmp1 manufacturer's joining, you'd think. If not then the ACO will have an issue. But not many made a big fuss when it was just Audi vs Peugeot with 4, 5 second per lap slower Aston Martin. Now Audi leaves because their financial troubles and it's doom and gloom again. I think and hope by this time next year we have another factory announced.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Rebellion ran at 800kg a year or two ago, it didn't help. They need more development, and power, better aero and low weight. If the ACO decide to let a lightweight car in, they'll need to balance it with a fuel flow or something so that the hybrid or alternative fueled cars are still worth it. They're not just going to drop that from their rules. Porsche and Toyota are here because that's what they want. Better to keep on the current path with reduced costs than to alienate who you have now hoping someone likes your new rules.

And to all those who think one of the remaining two factories will just up and quit, Porsche have committed to at least 2018, Toyota the same. By then there should be new lmp1 manufacturer's joining, you'd think. If not then the ACO will have an issue. But not many made a big fuss when it was just Audi vs Peugeot with 4, 5 second per lap slower Aston Martin. Now Audi leaves because their financial troubles and it's doom and gloom again. I think and hope by this time next year we have another factory announced.

Rebellion is not a factory car, we all know the difference between factory and a private car.
We are also talking about even less weight (780 or perhaps 750 Kg).
Also you can always adjust the power of the engine.
I do not think like you, I would like an opening regulation for factory cars no hybrids. The duel between the Porsche RS Spyder and the Audi R10 in the ALMS it was better than current WEC races.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

(you may want to check the top end speeds at Le Mans and other tracks before you make that comment though)

Do you think I said it for no reason?

Le Mans

12 Rebellion Racing Lola B12/60 Coupe - Toyota LMP1 Neel Jani 316.7

35 Baxi DC Racing Alpine Alpine A460 - Nissan LMP2 Ho-Pin TUNG 310.9

Spa

12 REBELLION RACING Lola B12/60 Coupé - Toyota LMP1 Neel Jani 280.5

43 RGR Sport by Morand LIGIER JS P2 - Nissan LMP2 Filipe ALBUQUERQUE 281.9

[TF110]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Rebellion is not a factory car, we all know the difference between factory and a private car.
We are also talking about even less weight (780 or perhaps 750 Kg).
Also you can always adjust the power of the engine.
I do not think like you, I would like an opening regulation for factory cars no hybrids. The duel between the Porsche RS Spyder and the Audi R10 in the ALMS it was better than current WEC races.

I didn't say only non factory cars should run without hybrids. But just because they're lighter doesn't mean they're going to be as fast. The factory guys could make their hybrid cars lighter. Maybe not down to sub 800kg. But there's definitely some room for them to come down. The cars are running as fast as possible to the rules. If they made rules available to manufacturers with 750kg but no hybrid or no alternative fuel I don't think much more interest would be shown than what there is on the way. Maybe for small teams like Rebellion but big manufacturers mostly want something road relevant. Right now it's EV or FCV or plug-in etc. That's just how it is these days.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

I didn't say only non factory cars should run without hybrids. But just because they're lighter doesn't mean they're going to be as fast. The factory guys could make their hybrid cars lighter. Maybe not down to sub 800kg. But there's definitely some room for them to come down. The cars are running as fast as possible to the rules. If they made rules available to manufacturers with 750kg but no hybrid or no alternative fuel I don't think much more interest would be shown than what there is on the way. Maybe for small teams like Rebellion but big manufacturers mostly want something road relevant. Right now it's EV or FCV or plug-in etc. That's just how it is these days.

According to Bruno Famin I guess that Peugeot might be interested.
In my point of view a low cost LMP1 alternative could be a fantastic option for the factorys, and could be very helpful to a new withdrawal of Porsche or Toyota

[TF110]

It's ironic that he says that but there's reports that Peugeot wanted the 3 hybrid systems. Who knows what it really is but I don't see the rules changing on the hybrid aspect for manufacturer teams.

[MagVanisher]

Spending with hybrid systems will shoot Peugeot in the foot by themselves! If ACO wants hybrid systems in LMP1 without hurting the manufacturer's budget, have they suggested to use off-the-shelf parts?

Otherwise, who needs hybrid systems in the first place. Honestly, I think the system is somewhat matured in the consumer market.

[wolfhound]

It seems like someone at Motorsport.com has been looking at this forum as they are talking about a new form of LMP1 with reduced hybrid.

http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/o...r-lmp1-843545/

[Spyderman]

Well if they dumb down LMP1, Porsche will have little or no interest in continuing. With GTE being a BoP crap-shoot, Sportscar racing will loose all of its luster for me.

[TF110]

Bunch of assumptions in that article. The funny thing is that most of the media is trying to spin this as Audi left because F-E is cheaper and it's more relevant. In actuality it's the VW group's huge fines and the ruined image of diesel. The huge budget issue in lmp1 was something basically introduced by the VW group participants.

When the ACO drops relevant tech like hybrids (which you can get on the street for $30k), big manufacturer's won't be interested. Smaller teams will be. But they don't bring in the big views and the headlines. Hybrids aren't the problem. It's stuff like slowing the cars down through restricted development areas. That's the problem F1 has. One team wrote the rules for the current engine formula, and it's an all Mercedes show. Lmp1 needs to go the opposite route. Lightweight could be good, but other freedoms should be granted so the competition isn't focused only on things like front wing flaps or diffuser shapes.

[ederss7]

Can the WEC be considered an "investment" for factory teams in LMP1-H? With all this talk about technology being transferred to the street and all the marketing involved, if it does work like an investment that is going to pay off, then why teams would complain so much about high costs? Taking Audi as an example, was it all worth it?

[carbsmith]

Audi is a special case. VAG diesels have fallen out of favour so it is no longer worth investing in that technology, while Porsche is already doing petrol hybrid technology for VAG. Without the diesel part they may as well just go to Formula E and focus on the electric component until there is some new option in LMP1.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Can the WEC be considered an "investment" for factory teams in LMP1-H? With all this talk about technology being transferred to the street and all the marketing involved, if it does work like an investment that is going to pay off, then why teams would complain so much about high costs? Taking Audi as an example, was it all worth it?

If it was, then by all accounts manufacturers shouldn't pull out from series so easily. And there are manufacturers that do well without the need to have a global big time racing program at all. Motorsport sure isn't very cost-effective form of marketing (superbowl ads are) and it is pretty wasteful way to develop anything useful for road appliance too. And insignificant in that sense too when the overall annual R&D spendings are in multiple billions.

[chernaudi]

RCE's take on LMP1 now, and what it probably should be going forward:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...ms-at-le-mans/

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

RCE's take on LMP1 now, and what it probably should be going forward:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...ms-at-le-mans/

Very good report of RCE's, the future of LMP1 could be more interesting that now.

[TF110]

I have a feeling Toyota and Porsche wouldn't be in the wec if there was no incentive to running a hybrid car. They could just do GTE if that were the case.

[chernaudi]

Over the past few days, I've grown more and more dissatisfied with the motorsports landscape. Series becoming more and more spec, or being dominated with one way to do things to ensure success. Series becoming fashionable rather than relevant, series being too expensive for their ROI returns and how many fans they attract. And racing series relying on gimmicks vs actual racing.

To me, over the past 5-6 years, racing has lost a lot of what drew me into it in the first place. Maybe racing just isn't the sport for me anymore.

[chernaudi]

Personally, I'd have kept the 2012/13 rules, where hybrids weren't mandatory and you didn't need one if you were a factory team to compete. Of course, I'd have also kept air restrictors, 2000mm wide cars, and stuff like that.

That's what I actually miss about the LMP900/first gen LMP1 era. The initial costs for a factory team program are high, because you're starting from scratch. But the longer the basic rules stay the same, the less it costs to compete because there's a self-policing cost cap, and it takes longer for a vehicle to become obsolescent. Why did the Audi R8 win races until literally it's last day on track? Why were the Porsche 956/962 series, designed originally in 1981, still winning races into the early 1990's?

Of course, I'm not in favor of excessively favoring a technical approach because a sanctioning body wants to push an agenda. That's a big part of why the WEC is where it is now, with hardly any privateer teams in LMP1, and the longest standing supporter of the class (and it's past equivalents) for the past 30 year period pulling out.

I'm also not in favor of the full DPI concept of mandating spec or a spec choice of chassis, spec engines or stock block only engines, or a spec hybrid system. You can say what you want about WSC prototypes, LMP900, and first gen LMP1, but relative to today in terms of different engine configurations, the cars looking very different, the customer car market, you were spoiled for choice compared to LMP1 of today.

Yeah, what I'm advocating is going backwards, but sometimes, you have to rationalize and simplify if it opens things up, yet bring costs down and get people interested in joining in.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Personally, I'd have kept the 2012/13 rules, where hybrids weren't mandatory and you didn't need one if you were a factory team to compete. Of course, I'd have also kept air restrictors, 2000mm wide cars, and stuff like that.

That's what I actually miss about the LMP900/first gen LMP1 era. The initial costs for a factory team program are high, because you're starting from scratch. But the longer the basic rules stay the same, the less it costs to compete because there's a self-policing cost cap, and it takes longer for a vehicle to become obsolescent. Why did the Audi R8 win races until literally it's last day on track? Why were the Porsche 956/962 series, designed originally in 1981, still winning races into the early 1990's?

Of course, I'm not in favor of excessively favoring a technical approach because a sanctioning body wants to push an agenda. That's a big part of why the WEC is where it is now, with hardly any privateer teams in LMP1, and the longest standing supporter of the class (and it's past equivalents) for the past 30 year period pulling out.

I'm also not in favor of the full DPI concept of mandating spec or a spec choice of chassis, spec engines or stock block only engines, or a spec hybrid system. You can say what you want about WSC prototypes, LMP900, and first gen LMP1, but relative to today in terms of different engine configurations, the cars looking very different, the customer car market, you were spoiled for choice compared to LMP1 of today.

Yeah, what I'm advocating is going backwards, but sometimes, you have to rationalize and simplify if it opens things up, yet bring costs down and get people interested in joining in.

I think like you, I like the diversity and with the increment in costs we were losing variety and we had few cars.
I think it is very positive the departure of AUDI and the rumors of the Porsche exit in 2018 because the ACO finally have to allow factory non-hybrid LMP1 and like racecar-engineering say a lot of programs could be possible. Peugeot, Nissan, Alpine, Rebellion, Strakka, Glickenhaus, BR or even a Joest R18 non-hybrid with gasoline engine could be possible if the cost is rational.

[TF110]

The article also says that those programs are possible today! No one is entering in the wec even with those rules open for private teams to make a very competitive car. It's not because of the rules. It's because no one wants to put up the money to do it. But if you look, you can see there's a possibility that someone does it.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

The article also says that those programs are possible today! No one is entering in the wec even with those rules open for private teams to make a very competitive car. It's not because of the rules. It's because no one wants to put up the money to do it. But if you look, you can see there's a possibility that someone does it.

No one is entering now because they are 6 or 7 seconds off the pace of factory LMP1. I think there would be many interested if they could be potential winners.

[GasperG]

I think Porsche showed more than enough what pace can be achived with defective hybrid system and 8 MJ class fuel flow.

Max manufacturer effort on current LMP-L regulations would blow out any top 8 MJ class hybrid.

[MagVanisher]

Reading RCE's latest article on the LMP1 class makes me want to see it revamped.