Tin Top or Open Top?

[Edstar]

Hello everyone,
I want to start motor racing but am undecided as to whether to go into saloon cars or single seaters. My budget isn't huge so I'm looking at either Stock Hatch or Formula Vee (unless you can suggest others).
One minute I decide to go with Vee, then I look at someone's Stock Hatch site and I change my mind - and vice versa!
Has anybody got experience of both types of racing and if so what are the pros / cons of each. Is one better than the other? Sure, it'll be down to personal preference but I'm just trying to decide which way to jump.

Thanks in advance,

Ed

[andy97]

Ed

I expect you will get a plethora of replies from everyone thinking that their series is the best! I'll start off by suggesting that you have a look at the Monoposto Racing Club (www.monoposto.co.uk) and particularly the Mono 1800 cc class. Entry fees don't really differ that much between the sort of club series that you are looking at so purchase costs and running costs (and fun) are the differentiator.

Mono 1800 accepts a variety of cars including F Ford Zetec, F Vauxhall Junior 16V and F Ford 2000 (Pinto engined). F Vauxhall Juniors can be picked up for about £4000 whilst F Ford Zetecs can be had for about a grand or so more, and the engines and gearboxes are bullet proof (F Vee and FF1600 engines will probably need more money spending on engine rebuilds than a Zetec or vauxhall twin cam). Tyres for Zetecs and FVJs can be picked up from the national F Ford teams at about £10 a tyre & will last 3-4 meetings.

Mono 1800 is one of the best value series that you can enter - the cars are quick enough, reliable, available, good fun and ideal for a novice. Unfortunately the class has not had the support it probably deserves but runs alongside the 2 litre class so you will always be part of a full grid with a few other cars to battle with. Cars eligible for Mono 1800 also have the advantage that they can also run in the 750 MCs F4 category and the BARC-South East Centres Open Single Seater series.

The Monoposto club is well run and everyone is very friendly and supportive. There are also classes for motorbike engined cars, 1600cc and 2 litre cars. The club normally has 2 races at each meeting for the 2000/1800 classes and the 1200/1600 classes.

In my view saloon/ hatches will be more expensive to run in the long run and are more difficult to work on. I looked into the Porsche 924 series but for roughly the same money I bought a single seater and the running costs are far lower (the aforementioned tyre are one example, whilst brake pads for a 924 last one race whilst mine last 4-5), whilst the single seaters are far quicker. Each will have their devotees but for my money single seaters are the way ahead! Fast, good value and extremely good fun; they are the real deal & the sensation of driving a single seater through the Craner Curves is awesome (even at the slow speed I go at!)

PM me if you want more info and I'll give you a number to call for a chat!

[MightyMiniMan]

Considered Mighty Minis?

I have just completed my first year and it is a Hoot!!!

If you want budget info, any other info just drop me an email to mailto:Evan@TurtyTree.co.uk .

I'd be happy to give you the run down on an excellent, close, friendly championship.

Cheers,
Evan
#33 Mighty Mini
www.TurtyTree.co.uk

[laprecord]

Stock Hatch is a cracking series, with the biggest entries in the country, so if you are into saloons this is the place to go. With the weight equivalancy formula the older (cheaper) cars can be near the newer front-runners.

It's a similar story for Formula Vee, which also has massive entries, although running on your own you are up against serious opposition. This also makes it one of the best places to learn single-seater racing as it is so competitive.

Both Stock and Vee usually run heats and finals, so there are heat races to be won for the less well-backed drivers.

If you're looking at something sportscar-based, take a look at the Max5 Series. It's extremely-production based, in some ways even more so than Stock Hatch, and has a good level playing field. Started this year as a series but now has championship status. There's a seperate thread about it elsewhere on ten-tenths.

All three of these categories are decent value ways to get into racing, basically it depends on what type of car you go for.

[ss_collins]

Ed quite simple rally - Vee, it costs about the same as stocks and they are real racing cars rather than old shopping cars - that said the racing in both is mega.

Still Vee though.

The organising club 750MC is probably the best in the UK, also Formula Vee has in effec its own club - the veecentre - www.veecentre.co.uk

[simon drabble]

I have raced both open and tin top although neither of the classes you mention here and much prefer open, I dont know what your budget is but why not look at a compromise between the 2 like say S2000? this has the advantage of having some endurance races which are better value

[Chris Y]

Cost wise it's probably more or less the same whichever path you choose.

It's more down to whatever floats your boat... If you can, try out a saloon AND a single seater, see which you prefer.

[haggispeed]

Have to put in my vote here for Clubmans racing. Simon mentions S2000 as a kind of compromise, not sure about that Simon they are after all open Sports racing cars so probably closer to Single Seaters but certainly provide fast, exiting reasonably priced "real" racing . Have a look at http://www.Classic-Clubmans.co.uk for more. You could run a class B car very reasonably for a season.

[acf8181]

as an impartial person (i dont race in any catergories) i'd say the budget to win stock hatch is quite high, also i'm not 100% convinced that its an entirely level playing field (if you know what i mean )

for saloons i reckon mini's...so much so that i'm considering entering next year.

single seaters...well, gotta be vee i think. though monoposto seems very good as well. reckon they'll be easier to work on as well.

[Peter Mallett]

I'm interested in this thread more from the question rather than the solution.

For me, I always wanted to race a tin top or sports car. Single seaters are fun but a tin top just has that element of difficulty. Single seaters are designed for raciung thus you have 50% of the qualities you need in the vehicle right there. A tin top needs development for both handling and performnce.

Thus IMO Ed doesn't have a clear idea of what he wants to do (not a criticism).

Yes there are loads of championships out there (Sam would say too many) but you may wish to go one route as a starter but then what will you do to progress?

Minis are all very well but old hat (sorry Chris) and the championships do lack a certain amount of variety. However going from there you can take the historic touring/sports cars or the modern saloon cars route.

Single seaters also have a progression but the further up the ladder the more expensive *exponentially) it becomes compared to a saloon car. At £1000 per corner a season of FFord can be seriously expensive.

So if your aims are to race and have further opportunities open to you as a club racer I'd go for the tin top and apart from 2CV's my preference would be the MG Car Club's Metro Chaqmpionship that will provide the lowest cost entry level. The MGCC also runs modern and historic championships so you have an automatic "tin Top" progression within the same club. The 750MC has a similar string of championships and also has open wheelers as well as sportscars etc.

For sheer value for money the tin top beats the single seater (IMO).

[JohnMiller]

Aren't the front runners in Stock and Hot Hatch all garage owners who re-shell their cars every other race?

[simon drabble]

I meant compromise in so much as S2000 is closed wheel open racing. For me the sports prototype style cars are most fun, giving great driving sensation and some great racing. I will be very interested to see how the new historic S2000 series succeeds, I hope it does as I am very tempted to get involved with it.

[andy97]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

Single seaters also have a progression but the further up the ladder the more expensive *exponentially) it becomes compared to a saloon car. At £1000 per corner a season of FFord can be seriously expensive.


For sheer value for money the tin top beats the single seater (IMO). [/B]

We were bound to get a diversity of opinion on this one but I find the last statement difficult to accept. 2 years ago I was in the same position as Ed and looked at a number of Club level options from Clubmans K Sport, Porsche 924, Hot Hatches and F Vee to Monoposto. I chose the latter precisely because it was the best VFM - the F Ford Zetec and FVJ cars are incredibly reliable (for a racing car), need very little prep between meetings and there are loads of spares available at good prices. £1000 a corner for a F Ford corner might be the brand new price at national level with parts direct from the Van Dieman parts counter but I had an argument with a barrier at Oulton Park last year and fixed 2 corners on my FVJ (not including uprights, which were fine) for £350, including paying someone to o do the work & set it all up again!

[Peter Mallett]

Fair enough but that's your experience. I was giving mine. And as I said it was the exponential costs as you go up the ladder.

Simon also talks about Sports Protoypes but I can't see the relevance in a novice situation. However his point is equally valid.

As to the cost, if you only have one argumant with a barrier then fine. Twice and its £700 etc. You can replace the wings and front suspension on a Metro for around £100 so you can see the cost difference. And set up is a case of let down the hydro and go.

But it depends what you want to race which was my original point. If you want to race single seaters then your budget will be diiferent to that for a tin top.

[ss_collins]

I've raced both Vee and Stock Hatch - vee is better imho. Also a front running vee can be bought for sub £5k.. The playing field is level in that everyone can do the same things and as was shown at Snet - the rule are very strictly policed indeed - at top runner being thrown out for a tiny non performance enhancing discrepancy. Since I've been in vee Ive heard no accusations of cheating at all - just people having worked a better setup or got an edge somehow.

[Peter Mallett]

In fairness you can buy a prepared Metro for about 1500 quid and run for less but that wasn't really my point. After that you've got to go somewhere else (in my experience you don't stay in the same car all your life) and then single seaters get more expensive more quickly.

[Simon Mason]

MOST IMPORTANT..... Don't go into any championship just because someone says the cars are cheap and the racing is fun and the competitors are nice guys. You Must look at how strong the potential of the series is and how much it will cost to repair the car when you hit something or blow the motor up (ignor this very real fact at your peril). This will effect how easy selling your car will be when you move on and you will, eventually. It will also effect how much you will get out of it as a driver. The more potential, the harder everyone has to try and therefore you get better.

Personaly if you have a limited budget (and your not bothered about any one make of car)your best options for next season are simply EITHER Formula Vee (Formula Ford 1600 if you can stretch to one) or MaX5. Stock hatch looks great on paper but sadly there is a high percentage of idiots racing in it (loads of avoidable shunts), more concerning rule bending is much easier (but more costly)due the "balancing of car types" rules. However, if FWD is your thing and frankly I think FWD is great fun then Stock is the only serious "budget" option to cover this. It will cost substantially more to race a Stock Hatch than an MaX5 or Formula Vee though unless you perminatly plan racing mid field or worse.

[andy97]

Originally posted by Simon Mason
MOST IMPORTANT..... Don't go into any championship just because someone says the cars are cheap and the racing is fun and the competitors are nice guys. You Must look at how strong the potential of the series is and how much it will cost to repair the car when you hit something or blow the motor up (ignor this very real fact at your peril). This will effect how easy selling your car will be when you move on and you will, eventually. It will also effect how much you will get out of it as a driver. The more potential, the harder everyone has to try and therefore you get better.

I'm assuming that this is a reply to my initial comments about Monoposto. I guess I agree with the sentiment but I would argue that racing in Monoposto is highly competitive with some excellent drivers taking part and a high standard of preparation. The category has been around for a long time, too, although it has evolved and been instrumental in introducing new categories of racing (such as Modern motorbike engined cars) to the UK club competitor.

The category is excellent for both the novice and the experienced alike and there is excellent potential to progress, both up the grid in the same car, or to faster and more sophisticated cars as experience and the budget increase. For Example , Monoposto caters for VFM cars such as F Ford Zetec as well as more expensive F3 chassis. Resale values seem fairly consistent because the club has stability of regs and can regularly put 2 full grids out at each meeting. People want to race in Mono so there is a market for the cars and the club is likely to be around for a long time to come.

The point about accident damage and engine blow ups is well made but I think that over a period of time single seaters are more cost effective than saloons/ road sports cars due to the fact that there is no expensive bodywork to replace/ repair and their components are designed to be raced, rather than compromised road units. Engines in all categories in Monoposto are standard road engines and so tend to be more reliable and need fewer rebuilds than their tuned equivelants (even a F Ford 1600 or F Vee engine ). Blow ups do occur but it is possible to nip to the nearest scrap yard and recover a Vauxhall/ VW or Zetec lump, fit a dry sump kit and go racing again. The engine in my FVJ has proven to be extremely reliable and has not needed a rebuild since it was used in a professional championship in 2000. Performance remains good. This is a very important factor when looking at potential annual running costs.

You are right that you have to look at the whole package before deciding where to race but Mono is not just about good fun in cheap cars, it is about, to quote the club motto, " Racing in the Grand Prix style" and represents excellent performance and value for the clubman.

My point was that racing in Monoposto is well organised, competitive and highly satisfying. It offers excellent potential for the novice as well as the experienced club competitor whilst having the added advantage that some cars can be bought and run relatively cheaply and the people involved are a decent bunch! After all, who wants to spend a fortune racing with people that you don't like and don't trust!!!

[Chris Y]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Minis are all very well but old hat (sorry Chris)

Hehe. I'm not going to get into a competition about whose car is the best, but I find that sentence hilarious from a man who drives a Capri

and the championships do lack a certain amount of variety.

Now you're hitting on the selling points - one make is the way to go if you don't want to spend hours tweaking your suspension only to find you're doing it wrong.

You see, it all depends on what you want out of racing. A few here have mentioned 'progressing up the ladder' - depends if you want to do that or not.. Do you want to develop the car, or just change the oil occasionally and go racing? Some get into racing from an engineering point of view - others do it to race others with equal machinery. Again, no one's right or wrong here - there's just horses for courses.

[Peter Mallett]

Agree concerning the progression thing which is why I based my comments on that.

As to Capri driver well that is another point. I would never suggest a novice gets a Capri and thinks he/she is going to be competitive for less than serious time and of course dosh. Nor any other "historic" category although Zefarelly is doing quite well with his GT Cortina.

The "old hat" tag is really because unless the cars fit either into a "historic" category or Mini Miglia/Se7ens then it is just a make weight formula (IMO). But, yes one make is the cheap tin top route which is why I would advise it but for anybody who wants to do more they tend to leave you a bit stranded.

That was why the question puzzled me. I never said to myself "I want to race so what should it be"?

I said "I want to race that type of car" and did it.

As the thread is demonstrating the question can't be answered without a specific goal.

[Simon Mason]

Andy 97, To be honest mate I had'nt even read your previous post. I only have so much reading time!

I just posted on what my experience tells me maters in this most diluted of sports.

[andy97]

Originally posted by Simon Mason
Andy 97, To be honest mate I had'nt even read your previous post. I only have so much reading time!

I just posted on what my experience tells me maters in this most diluted of sports.

Fair enough. At least it gave me the chance to expound some more on what I think is one of the best club motorsport categories in the UK!

[simon drabble]

I might be wrong here but isnt there a limit of signatures you can get from the same series? (I mean for someone looking for upgrades on their licence...

[BertMk2]

Is location an issue as well? Some series go to most of the national circuits whilst others are based at a single circuit, obviously travelling around the country puts up your annual costs - if there's a series that runs purely at your local circuit that may be able to cater for your car whatever you choose to run.

[greenamex2]

You can get as many signatures as you want from a single series, the limitation is on the number of signatures at a single race meeting.

No idea what it is though.