Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3

[Icebaby]

Vettal drove a blinder but if the rules were fair he would have been given a stop and go for running outside the track limits on his pass with Button. You can't enforce the rules for one driver and not continue this to others, it was clear cut.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Vettal drove a blinder but if the rules were fair he would have been given a stop and go for running outside the track limits on his pass with Button. You can't enforce the rules for one driver and not continue this to others, it was clear cut.

I don't agree, i'm sure people will say this just because i'm a Seb fan, but he had the pass done before he went over the line. Then going over the line only lengthened his lap, it didn't shorten it, which is what Jenson did and why he got the penalty.

Buemi's pass was more blatent but he didn't get penalised too so it was consistant. Just out of interest, at Singapore last season, drivers were overtaking over the white line at turn 2/3 but they didn't get penalised either.

[Super Hans]

Anyone who wants to see race results being affected by over-zealous officialdom should get hold of the season review DVDs from the latter years of Mosley's reign and watch those.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Vettal drove a blinder but if the rules were fair he would have been given a stop and go for running outside the track limits on his pass with Button. You can't enforce the rules for one driver and not continue this to others, it was clear cut.

It wasn't clear cut. The two incidents were different. One was running wide and the other was cutting a corner.

Even if you think that the run should be interpreted so that Vettel should be penalised you can't think it is clear cut because the situation was different. The differences are clear.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Webber couldn't explain it so either Seb had the measure of Mark comfortably or Red Bull are screwing him over, but would they do that to the detriment of 2nd place in the race and 8 extra constructors points? I don't think so.

Vettel definitely creamed Webber this weekend - the margin that he was doing it by is what has surprised many.

I find it hard to believe that the team would deliberately do this so either Vettel has stepped up massively of there is some kind of problem with either Webber or his car.

I recall that Vettel had an issue with his chassis for some of the early rounds last year - took them a few races to work it out but once they did, he was back on par. Maybe something like this is going on?

[Adam43]

Or maybe, this weekend Vettel smoked Webber in the style of Mansell and Patrese in 1991/2. Patrese was close and sometimes ahead early in their career as team mates, but then Mansell got the upperhand.

[Moneyseeker]

Vettel still developing as a driver and also has the confidence that a WDC brings, he was generally quicker over a single lap than MW last year - maybe this has increased the gap to MW.

Whatever, Mark looked out of sorts and was no where near Vettel in the race either.

[newlaprecord]

Unlike Britain 2010, it WAS a bad drive from a number two, he should be stealing some points from Hamilton, Alonso and alike to help Seb more

[OZ_HCR32]

Hey its all roses from where I sit Last year Webber sucked in the first two rounds of the season. Sur ehe got points but he was something like 8th and 6th. So this was as good as a podium for me

No doubt the decision to go to hards for the second stint was a big mistake which didnt help his weekend. Neither did a slow stop and a bad out lap allowing Alonso to grab 4th...

Lets see what happens in Malaysia. Our Mark seems to come out of the off season slumber around Malaysia with a hint of pace but still missing the result

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by E.B

What was with Mark not doing a slowdown lap, but just stopping at the pit exit and getting out of the car before walking away? Busting for a pee? Or having trouble with getting to grips and the relative performances of Seb and himself over the weekend?

He certainly seemed less than happy and even by his own miserable look standards we have seen so often before with Mark..... this was as despondent and miserable as I have seen him look since he 'celebrated' his first podium at Monaco 2005.

He couldn't stand the humiliation one second longer........that being not improving on his best home GP finish even with the best wheels in the business.
Didn't even acknowledge the crowd walking back to the garage.......his mind was probably thinking "I may as well have driven that damn Minardi again!"
As close to a knock out punch in the first round as you can get.



.

[newlaprecord]

Fair play to Mark tho even Helmut Marko confirmed it on RTL that his car was using up tires at a peculiarly faster pace than Vettel's.

It means to me it was probably more than what a different driving style would explain... might be some difference between the chases (at the risk of sounding like a bad Webber fan, the chases can only ever try to be the same for both drivers, they never actually 100% are)

It doesnt make him a better driver than Vettel, simply because he is sooo not, but might explain losing places to Nando and Petrov in the race if its true.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Vettal drove a blinder but if the rules were fair he would have been given a stop and go for running outside the track limits on his pass with Button. You can't enforce the rules for one driver and not continue this to others, it was clear cut.

I thought this too. It would have have been a harsh penalty, but then as someone else said wrt. the Sauber penalty "rules is rules".
It would have been really harsh to enforce the penalty, but how did this affect Hamilton's ability to get past Vettel?
Why did Vettel expose himself to the risk? Silly.

[mac]

By running wide where he did, Vettel was able to maintain a much higher speed through the corner than he would have been able to had he stuck to the race track... As he swooped around the outside, I am convinced he had absolutely no intention of sticking to the race track.

Technically he gained an advantage by leaving the circuit because he could go so much faster through the corner by widening the track.

Conversely, the fact that drivers run wide on the other side of that kerb quite a lot, would make giving a penalty there a touch controversial...

As for Webber, I am worried about him with all this new Pirelli tyre stuff... I think he struggles a bit when tyres are a critical factor...

The last time drivers had to be so careful with tyre wear was 2005, when they had to make one set of tyres last for a whole race...

If you recall, Webber was often quick and would usually qualify quite well, however during the races he would often struggle somewhat, and Nick Heidfeld would often get the better of him...

Now, I am sure most people would agree that Heidfeld is definitely not a better or faster driver than Webber, however I think it is pretty safe to say that he got the better of Webber that season and the common rationale (even from Webber) is that he struggled making the tyres work.

It was a concern I had going into this season, and I must admit that Melbourne has only increased my concern.

I can only hope that Malaysia will blow that concern out of the water!

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by mac

....Now, I am sure most people would agree that Heidfeld is definitely not a better or faster driver than Webber, ...

Why on earth would anyone definitely agree with that ? Unless they are Australians.

[mac]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Why on earth would anyone definitely agree with that ? Unless they are Australians.

Let's go by grand prix wins and pole positions if we have to... But you are missing the point - I'm not trying to draw a comparison with Heidfeld... That was done to death six years ago!

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by mac

Let's go by grand prix wins and pole positions if we have to...

Yea, good idea! Or lets go by the fact that Heidfeld's pre-F1 record is immaculate, Webber is a champion of nothing to date or wait a minute, lets go by the fact that Heidfeld was better than him , scored more points and a pole position when they were team-mates. Thats a pretty good reason to belive that Webber is not definitely a better driver than him

[Oran Park Forever]

There's been times when Autosport mag's top 100 pole has rated him better than Alan Jones..........he ain't even AJ's little left toe.

Seriously, in the post race interview he looked like he'd been beaten up on the first day of school. The vacant stare said it all.......so shocked not even a hint of an excuse......reality has bitten!

If part 4 is needed, should be titled "Vettel & Webber"


.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Why on earth would anyone definitely agree with that ? Unless they are Australians.

Originally Posted by mac

Let's go by grand prix wins and pole positions if we have to... But you are missing the point - I'm not trying to draw a comparison with Heidfeld... That was done to death six years ago!

All i will say is that Heidfeld was equally as disappointing as Webber yesterday!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

There's been times when Autosport mag's top 100 pole has rated him better than Alan Jones..........he ain't even AJ's little left toe.

Seriously, in the post race interview he looked like he'd been beaten up on the first day of school. The vacant stare said it all.......so shocked not even a hint of an excuse......reality has bitten!

If part 4 is needed, should be titled "Vettel & Webber"


.

Somebody should have rehashed the "Not bad for a number two comment".
It somehow has a ring of truth.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Mr V

All i will say is that Heidfeld was equally as disappointing as Webber yesterday!

At least Heidfeld had an excuse for his poor performance on Sunday (NOT for Saturday!): http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/110930477/AFP

He had a really decent start up to P12 through the first corner and got punted by a Toro Rosso. But such things happen if you start at the end of the field in a car that's capable of podium finishs.

Now back to Webber: Really poor performance and attitude (parking the car on the start-finish straight) yesterday, even for a number two driver.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Yea, good idea! Or lets go by the fact that Heidfeld's pre-F1 record is immaculate, Webber is a champion of nothing to date or wait a minute, lets go by the fact that Heidfeld was better than him , scored more points and a pole position when they were team-mates. Thats a pretty good reason to belive that Webber is not definitely a better driver than him

I share the opposite view...

I used to be a big Heidfeld fan, and was disappointed when he missed the call up to McLaren. When he got his shot with Williams I was stoked and expected him to comfortably out pace Webber. I never really rated Webber until his first year at Williams alongside Heidfeld where you have to say that Webber was generally the quicker driver, and often in better positions trying to capitalise on opportunities. Instead, Fisi took him out in Malaysia when Webber should have 2nd or 3rd to Heidfelds 4th. A line ball pit call at Monaco gave Heidfeld 2nd and Webber 3rd and when things went pear shaped with poor reliability or clashes for either driver...generally Webber was ahead on the track at the time.

I remember because I was rooting for Heidfeld and was cracking it that Webber was showing more promise/pace. To say he was ahead on points when he retired from the season doesnt paint the right picture IMO. He was a point or two ahead, whcih when you give consideration to the season to date I gave Webber the nod over Heidfeld, and Nock was my faourite driver at the time!

For me it was the season where I started to think of Heidfeld of simply having solid pace, but being a very crafty racer. Webber had better pace, more ability to string together a single lap...but lacked the race craft of Heidfeld.

Today, I have no doubt that Webber is clearly a better driver then Heidfeld. He still has better pace, more flexible/adjustable to a car and has a far better balance of aggression and patience compared to when they were team mates.

I think its a bit of a shame that so many people want to see Webber fail. No denying this weekend was not a good enough result....but I don't know what to think of his first race...other then it was poor...much like Bahrain last year. Malaysia is a track where he has typically been competitive irrespective of the car he has been in so if he is left for dead there then I will start to worry

[gomick]

So why did Webber pit 3 times & Seb twice - because Seb's car was perfect & Mark's not?
Think over the course of the year, Mark will be doing well if he beats Seb 5 times in 19 GP...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by gomick

So why did Webber pit 3 times & Seb twice - because Seb's car was perfect & Mark's not?
Think over the course of the year, Mark will be doing well if he beats Seb 5 times in 19 GP...

If Mark sets his car up so it doesn't kill the rear tyres, he may have a shot at beating Seb

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

To say he was ahead on points when he retired from the season doesnt paint the right picture IMO. He was a point or two ahead, ...

He was 4 points ahead. With the old scoring system too. Just to be factual. Other than that I think you give a fair enough analysis to the season, there were certainly a few Grand Prix early in the season when Heidfeld got nothing on Webber's speed. Resulting an 8 to 5 qual battle in favour of Webber. I think giving a good analytical look at the tendencies of the season, Heidfeld was likely to polish on the qual stats (or not, who knows). He did outrace Webber by 4 points, Webber outqualified him by 3 races... does it make either of them definitely a better drive than the other.. hardly.

Since they parted company, they both faced a similar tasks, they both had to crack the nut of being faster than the creme-de-la-creme of the new generation. Heidfeld eventually managed it, turned his game around and beaten Kubica in both, their 3rd and last season and their overall stats (28 to 28 qual, 138 to 128 in points for Heidfeld). Lets see if Webber can say the same when his journey with Vettel ends. Shall we.

[Bononi]

Wow, Heidfeld vs Webber ! How an accident can turn things the other way around. If not for it, there would be no discussions like this, or maybe even more...