Big Changes at the House of Eights

[mite5255]

Originally Posted by Kingair

Looks like somebody needs a hug, or a blowup doll from one of those adult shops!

[Umai Naa]

Inflatable Annie would proably knock him back.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Inflatable Annie would proably knock him back.

Oh God this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[benny41]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

There are 3 facets to car racing. Driving, engineering, building (mechanic).

Which of these disciplines could Dane generate a name for himself if he wasn't an owner?

Edit: I've just noticed Mixer's post. "the guy that redefined professionalism and set the bar for team presentation and engineering of customer cars".

Professionalism is relative, and he wasn't needed for customer cars. But these factors increase $$$$$$$$$$$$$ for his benefit.

These are superficial factors in racing. So what does he bring to the table in a motor racing sense?

Just out of interest how do you pay for car builders , engineer's and mechanics if you dont have sound finances to do it? Dane may not be a driver engineer or car builder but he certainly know how to run a good operation.

Its not the 70s anymore where you can be a take a production car and add a few bits to go racing unfortunately those days are long gone

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

These are superficial factors in racing. So what does he bring to the table in a motor racing sense?

Winning?

Winning seems to be harder than it looks else Brad Jones, Tim Edwards, Todd Kelly etc would execute a winning strategy too...

Putting together the sponsors, engineers, and drivers to win seems to be non-trivial.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

There are 3 facets to car racing. Driving, engineering, building (mechanic).

Just of interest, in your 3 facets model, who pays the bills?

Sadly you woeful understanding of the sport seems to ignore THE most important facet... leadership.

And I say THE most important facet, because the immutable truth is that while you don't rate Roland Dane.... the best drivers, the best engineers and the best mechanics very clearly do... which is why they go to work for him.... and why he wins.... again and again and again (which is sometimes considered a pretty important part of going racing)

Oh, the same could also be said for the people who pay the bills, because Roland seems to have a pretty good collection of stickers on the side of his cars.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

Sadly you woeful understanding of the sport seems to ignore THE most important facet... leadership.

Excellent point.

RD is pretty blunt but I'd reckon a lot of people in pit line would be happy that he isn't as brutal as Larry Perkins, which really you couldn't legally get away with in this day and age!

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by benny41

Just out of interest how do you pay for car builders , engineer's and mechanics if you dont have sound finances to do it? Dane may not be a driver engineer or car builder but he certainly know how to run a good operation.

Its not the 70s anymore where you can be a take a production car and add a few bits to go racing unfortunately those days are long gone

That's fine, but generating the money and running the operation is not a motor racing skill.

Other senior motor racing owners/managers get involved in, or bring a motor racing skill to the table or could trade-off.

Roger Penske is a former driver and a former GP driver at that. Previously I would've considered Dane a reject bin Ron Dennis, guys that do the wheeling and deal and run the joint but offer nothing in a motor racing sense. But I found out that Ron Dennis used to be a mechanic for Jack Brabham! SO even Ron is legit.

But what's Dane's claim to fame? He's Derek Warwick's mate.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Winning?

Winning seems to be harder than it looks else Brad Jones, Tim Edwards, Todd Kelly etc would execute a winning strategy too...

Putting together the sponsors, engineers, and drivers to win seems to be non-trivial.

Like I've said, he's from a bigger, more hardened motorsport culture(UK/Europe, but he's a product of UK motorsport). He comes down here and takes advantage of a smaller, less knowledgeable motor racing community, and beats up.

It'd be like me starting an engineering firm, going over to NZ, making winning races/titles and generating a business over there, and have all of that small community fawning over me.

He's a reject bin Frank Williams.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

That's fine, but generating the money and running the operation is not a motor racing skill.

I'm sorry, but you are missing the point again. Generating the money and running the operation is the most important motor racing skill.

Allow me to explain:

Without the generation of money, and running an operation successfully, motor racing does not happen.

If you want an example - compare two of the most successful (and talented) drivers in BTCC - Jason Plato and Colin Turkington. Both of them are multiple champions, but Turkington has found himself without a drive after a title-winning season. That is down to the generation of money (or lack of).
Ash Sutton is in demand for many teams, but not only because of his talent, but because his management team are adept at generating money and running an operation that puts him in a seat.

That is why MotorSport Academies will teach the following:
'training for all areas including technique, media, financials, mental preparedness, race and sports psychology'

If I take the most talented crew in motor sport (drivers, engineers and mechanics) and fail to generate money or run an operation, then there will be no results on track.
If I take an average crew in motor sport, and put behind them money and a well-run operation, then they have a strong chance of getting good results.

The real skill that has been shown, but somehow you deride, is in generating money, running an operation and putting a talented crew together. That is where the titles and success came from.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

But what's Dane's claim to fame?

Backmarker in the 1988-1989 Honda CRX Challenge of Great Britain?

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

He's a reject bin Frank Williams.

If it's so easy, why doesn't another race team / machine shop knock-off 888 as the largest supplier of customer racing cars and parts in the ATCC?

I guess you could say Ceprenich's PACE Innovations is a larger and more impressive fabricator of bits for the ATCC, although PACE are not a competitor.

GRM are similarly an impressive fabricator and car preparer for the various ARG categories.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Like I've said, he's from a bigger, more hardened motorsport culture(UK/Europe, but he's a product of UK motorsport). He comes down here and takes advantage of a smaller, less knowledgeable motor racing community, and beats up.

If so, then how come Ford Performance Racing with the backing of Prodrive couldn't do it?

The Prodrive Mondeos ran rings around 888 Race Engineering's Vectras (possibly with the assistance of large bags of money), yet the same didn't happen in Australia.

I would have loved to have seen the Falcons of Lowndes, Seton and Besnard running 1-2-3 like the Mondeos below, but I don't recall it ever happening, sadly.



If anything, both 00 Motorsport and Triple Eight Race Engineering set Glenn Seton Racing and Ford Performance Racing backwards by diverting much needed Ford funding. What a mess! I guess the blame has to go with the team manager of Glenn Seton Racing (not as savvy as Mr. Dane?) for letting that team be outplayed politically by other Ford entrants. (I certainly expected Lowndes to drive #6 of Ford Tickford Racing in 2001, but it didn't happen.)



Not to say that Mr. Richards is without talent (quite the opposite), but with a Lowndes and a bag of money (and perhaps a third car for Mr. Richards, likely a better driver than Mr. Besnard), what could have been.

[one five five]

It’s hard to compare the 2000 BTCC battle between Prodrive Ford and T8 Vauxhall with their 2004-2012 V8Supercar battles.

Most of the Prodrive people involved in the BTCC Mondeo program went on to the 2002 Prodrive ETCC Volvo team and the 2001-2005 Prodrive Ferrari 550 GTS program.

Some key figures came to V8s but the bulk of the teams out here were Aussie sourced.

It’s like trying to compare the 1990 TWR HRT operation with the 1986 TWR Rover campaign

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm sorry, but you are missing the point again. Generating the money and running the operation is the most important motor racing skill.

Allow me to explain:

Without the generation of money, and running an operation successfully, motor racing does not happen.

If you want an example - compare two of the most successful (and talented) drivers in BTCC - Jason Plato and Colin Turkington. Both of them are multiple champions, but Turkington has found himself without a drive after a title-winning season. That is down to the generation of money (or lack of).
Ash Sutton is in demand for many teams, but not only because of his talent, but because his management team are adept at generating money and running an operation that puts him in a seat.

That is why MotorSport Academies will teach the following:
'training for all areas including technique, media, financials, mental preparedness, race and sports psychology'

If I take the most talented crew in motor sport (drivers, engineers and mechanics) and fail to generate money or run an operation, then there will be no results on track.
If I take an average crew in motor sport, and put behind them money and a well-run operation, then they have a strong chance of getting good results.

The real skill that has been shown, but somehow you deride, is in generating money, running an operation and putting a talented crew together. That is where the titles and success came from.

Generating money in racing is a general business, commerce, networking, political trait. Not a motor racing one.

The nuts and bolts of motor racing participation is in the driving, engineering/building.

It's why pay drivers get relentlessly derided, as it's not perceived they bring enough to the table from a driving perspective to justify the drive they have.

[Kingair]

Looks like JW is now on nappy changing duties!

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

But what's Dane's claim to fame? He's Derek Warwick's mate.

He purchased a mid-pack team and built into the most successful team of the last 15 years. Not bad for someone who is only somebody's mate.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Jack65

He purchased a mid-pack team and built into the most successful team of the last 15 years. Not bad for someone who is only somebody's mate.

Exactly.

99.9% of us agree here Im sure.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Excellent point.

RD is pretty blunt but I'd reckon a lot of people in pit line would be happy that he isn't as brutal as Larry Perkins, which really you couldn't legally get away with in this day and age!

Like driving style there is no one "right" way, leadership doesn't have to be blunt, being blunt doesn't make you a good leader.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

That's fine, but generating the money and running the operation is not a motor racing skill.

Okay, let's reframe it.... Would you agree that winning races is the ultimate motor racing skill and/or the aim of any motor racing person?

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

But what's Dane's claim to fame? He's Derek Warwick's mate.

His claim to fame would be founding and running a pretty successful race team. While you have your own thoughts, I suspect there's some fairly well credentialed people with "motor racing skill" that would suggest he's got a bit more going for him in the field than you do.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It'd be like me starting an engineering firm, going over to NZ, making winning races/titles and generating a business over there, and have all of that small community fawning over me.

Why wouldn't you then? You'd be rolling in the cash, it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel.... I mean look how Jet Star, The Good Guys or David Jones who've come over from Aussie and are simply smashing the market.

To be honest, I don't know how drivers like SvG and Scott McLaughlin can take the whipping they get when they go from a smaller softer market into a bigger harder market.... but I guess someone has to make up the numbers, right?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Jack65

He purchased a mid-pack team and built into the most successful team of the last 15 years. Not bad for someone who is only somebody's mate.

He bought a team? That's not a motor racing skill. Would he have started a team if the groundwork wasn't already done?

Originally Posted by Chappelli

Okay, let's reframe it.... Would you agree that winning races is the ultimate motor racing skill and/or the aim of any motor racing person?

Winning is an aim, but not a skill. They winning is a result of the doing. The driving, engineering and building. Dane doesn't do either of those things.

Originally Posted by Chappelli

His claim to fame would be founding and running a pretty successful race team. While you have your own thoughts, I suspect there's some fairly well credentialed people with "motor racing skill" that would suggest he's got a bit more going for him in the field than you do.

He didn't find it, he acquired it.

If he could not bring funds to the table, how could he make a name for himself in racing? He can't.

Originally Posted by Chappelli

To be honest, I don't know how drivers like SvG and Scott McLaughlin can take the whipping they get when they go from a smaller softer market into a bigger harder market.... but I guess someone has to make up the numbers, right?

SBG does a lot of things but doesn't stick his neck out like McLaughin has and Ambrose did.

Mclaughlin might put up with it because he's new to indycars. But it might start to grate on him if he doesn't become a contender.

[Jack65]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

He bought a team? That's not a motor racing skill.

Motor racing teams requires people with many different skill sets. While Dane was by his own admission, a run of the mill driver, what he has done as an owner is use his skills to build the most successful team in the paddock by bringing good drivers, good engineers and good funding together.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Would he have started a team if the groundwork wasn't already done?

Possibly, I'm sure he would have been capable of doing so, but by buying an existing team the building blocks were already in place.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

The driving, engineering and building. Dane doesn't do either of those things.

No he doesn't, but he brought the management skills required to bring the drivers, engineers and funding together that are necessary for a successful team.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

He bought a team? That's not a motor racing skill. Would he have started a team if the groundwork wasn't already done?

Winning is an aim, but not a skill. They winning is a result of the doing. The driving, engineering and building. Dane doesn't do either of those things.

A think a key distinction here is between having the skills to compete as a racer, having the skills to compete in motor racing and having the skills to compete in motorsport.

The skills to compete as a racer lie predominantly in the driver, with a smaller factor in the engineers.

The skills to compete in motor racing predominantly lie in the garage and engineer / designer. They are supported by the skills of the driver and back office.

The skills to compete in motorsport lie predominantly in the back offices, supported by the garage and the driver.

All of these elements are needed to support each other - and all of the respective skills are relevant. One can not exist without the other.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Jack65

He purchased a mid-pack team and built into the most successful team of the last 15 years. Not bad for someone who is only somebody's mate.

Indeed. In a similar timeframe, such operations as Team Dynamik, 00 Motorsport Mk2, WPS Racing, Britek Motorsport and Paul Cruikshank Racing have all come and gone. It would seem that operating an ongoing race team, let alone a race winning one, is non-trivial!

[Racing Harz]

I think Roland Dane stole his wife. That explains the hate.

[Sandgroper]

seriously a troll,

How dare you have an opinion against him. !

[Kingair]

Nah, more likely he found RD shagging his sister or his mum!

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Kingair

Nah, more likely he found RD shagging his sister or his mum!

Likely to be the same woman.