[FIA GT] GT4 - The future...?

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by peckstar

But Gt3 is getting expensive. tripling in price in the last few years

GT4 is more affordable although even they are starting to get up cost

Growth, Peak, Bust, repeat. Crazy how even in a BoP class prices go up. Rules makers fault for allowing faster cars every year or two. And just where do GT Cup cars fall as far as state of tune?

[FormulaFox]

The thing I think needs to be remembered about GT4 compared to GT3 is that there's one fundamental difference between the two that could negate the significance of the pricier cars... And it's NOT BoP - after all, GT3 has shown us that BoP alone does not prevent skyrocketing costs.

No, it's the allowable amount of changes to the car. GT3 costs skyrocketed to the point where it can't be done cheap because the rules allowed for so much to be done to the cars that even with BoP there was no way to build a car that could compete without going to extremes.

GT4, on the other hand, allows very FEW alterations to the car. Under those circumstances if you start with a good base, you could very easily make a car that can stay competitive - possibly even withOUT the assistance of BoP. You just need sufficient technical know-how.

All one needs to do in order to see this clearly is look at the 2015 European GT4 champions - a somewhat outdated Camaro built for Conti GS. Up against Porsches, BMWs, and specials like the KTM X-Bow and SIN R1, a lineup which a Camaro should have had ZERO chance with as few modifications as GT4 allows, it still took the championship.

(sadly, the car was destroyed in a shop fire midway through the 2016 season)

This isn't necessarily going to prevent the more expensive cars from taking over for a while, but it provides GT4 with a built-in safety net that GT3 simply never had. There will ALWAYS be cars that can be quickly made into GT4 cars when the rug comes out from under the big money cars, and they can very easily be made competitive against the remnants of the pricey cars.

Put simply, as long as the rules don't open up to further allowable modifications, it will always be possible to do GT4 cheaply. And that is the class's biggest benefit going forward.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

All one needs to do in order to see this clearly is look at the 2015 European GT4 champions - a somewhat outdated Camaro built for Conti GS. Up against Porsches, BMWs, and specials like the KTM X-Bow and SIN R1, a lineup which a Camaro should have had ZERO chance with as few modifications as GT4 allows, it still took the championship.

In other words, "BoP". I hate these twenty ton five thousand horse powers behemoths amidst the nimble GT4s. It hurt to watch in PWC as well. That's already a level of BoP I'd rather not see. Same applies to the upcoming AMG GT4. This heavy-duty warhorse shouldn't be let in, IMO...

[PeterY]

Unfortunately GT4 will go the way of GT1 and GT3 is heading.

Each year someone is allowed one little extra bit and then everyone else has the right to have it. This was meant to be a road car based championship with very few changes other than striped out interiors with rollcage, uprated brakes and suspension to allow setup changes for use on track. Aston stuck to this as did lotus and Porsche all have road cars available in very similar spec.

Mclaren started the year in British GT bringing their 570s along, it had centre lock wheels, additional wing etc. and a price tag of £60k more than the porsche! Other manufacturer are now going to look at that and want those bits on their cars, so they are allowed to make it fair and the price rises and this will happen year on year until none of the gentleman drivers can realistically afford to carry on so they will go to the next step down and the process will start all over again.
GT5 is taken b Ginetta so they better start thinking of a new name or write LT a very big cheque

Porsche now have carbon doors, bonnet and few other bits on the Cayman none of these are fitted on a road car but have been added to try and keep up and to extract a few more ££££ out of the customers pocket.

GT4 needs to be kept to road based cars with road equipment. If i was running there series i would restrict it too all panels have to be same material as the road car it is based on, perspex window for safety, engine has to be the same as does gearbox, suspension systems have to remain original design, dampers and springs can be changed to allow ride height adjustments, uprated brakes (no carbon). NO additional aero over standard road car, then balance them out with weight, height and engine maps for turbo cars. if this was then restricted for 5 years we may have a stable formula that can work for a number of years and keep a steady flow of drivers coming through from lower ranks looking to move up.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

The thing I think needs to be remembered about GT4 compared to GT3 is that there's one fundamental difference between the two that could negate the significance of the pricier cars... And it's NOT BoP - after all, GT3 has shown us that BoP alone does not prevent skyrocketing costs.

No, it's the allowable amount of changes to the car. GT3 costs skyrocketed to the point where it can't be done cheap because the rules allowed for so much to be done to the cars that even with BoP there was no way to build a car that could compete without going to extremes.

GT4, on the other hand, allows very FEW alterations to the car. Under those circumstances if you start with a good base, you could very easily make a car that can stay competitive - possibly even withOUT the assistance of BoP. You just need sufficient technical know-how.

All one needs to do in order to see this clearly is look at the 2015 European GT4 champions - a somewhat outdated Camaro built for Conti GS. Up against Porsches, BMWs, and specials like the KTM X-Bow and SIN R1, a lineup which a Camaro should have had ZERO chance with as few modifications as GT4 allows, it still took the championship.

(sadly, the car was destroyed in a shop fire midway through the 2016 season)

This isn't necessarily going to prevent the more expensive cars from taking over for a while, but it provides GT4 with a built-in safety net that GT3 simply never had. There will ALWAYS be cars that can be quickly made into GT4 cars when the rug comes out from under the big money cars, and they can very easily be made competitive against the remnants of the pricey cars.

Put simply, as long as the rules don't open up to further allowable modifications, it will always be possible to do GT4 cheaply. And that is the class's biggest benefit going forward.

But with the big manufacturers getting involved I am not sure they will keep this strategy.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by FIRE

But with the big manufacturers getting involved I am not sure they will keep this strategy.

Well, ask yourself this question: What purpose would it serve to change the strategy?

GT4 fills a spot in GT racing that nothing else does - that's why it was created in the first place. GT3 evolved to fill a different gap that opened(the one left by the collapse of GT1), but there's no opening that it would suit GT4 to evolve to fill. It's slipped into a perfect niche and it is unlikely to be moved beyond it.

If something changed and there was an opening for GT4 to evolve into, that'd be different. But as things stand right now, there isn't. It makes no sense to change the strategy for the class.

[FIRE]

I can see GT3 becoming less popular in future and dissolve at the end.
(although I admit expect this already a couple of years; so far I am wrong )

About GT4. If big manufacturers get involved also politics will follow. It's no longer only about the private teams/drivers and fans.

[Rcz]

This is why I think Grand Sport becoming GT4 is a mistake.

[Speed-King]

...and here's the Bimmer:

[FIRE]

In Dubai, the @BMWMotorsport M4 GT4 will be raced by Jörg Müller, Ricky Collard and Dirk Adorf @24HSERIES

Originally Posted by Speed-King

...and here's the Bimmer:

Because of the dark tinted glass I assume this is a mockup car?

[Bcarr6]

To me, this is more GT4 than the AMG GT


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[TF110]

That camo m4 is their test and development car.

[Mitchi_S]

Originally Posted by peckstar

But Gt3 is getting expensive. tripling in price in the last few years

GT4 is more affordable although even they are starting to get up cost

*tripling* the price? Is it really that bad?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mitchi_S

*tripling* the price? Is it really that bad?

Well, in the last ten years, yes.

Here's a price list Harald Gallinis (username "gt-eins" on here) put together back in 2006:

Dodge Competition Coupe: 148.000€
Corvette GT3: 200.000€
Ascari KZ1: 240.000€
Aston Martin DBRS9: 250.000€ (+ 50.000 for sequential gearbox)
Porsche GT3-Cup: 130.000€ (+ 20.000 if you don't compete in a Porsche one-make Cup)
Lamborghini Gallardo: 175.000€
F430 Challenge: 180.000€ (+ 8.000 for the GT3-Kit)
Maserati Grand Sport Light: 180.000€

[Marcel ten Caat]

GT4 prices as they are supplied now...to compare with GT3 from 2006 ;-)

Aston Martin Vantage GT4 € 181.000
Chevrolet Camaro GT4 € 125.000
Ekris M4 GT4 € 165.000
Porsche Cayman Clubsport GT4 € 127.900 (+€ 35.000 for the MR kit)
SIN R1 GT4 € 146.200
McLaren 570S GT4 € 187.000

[Speed-King]

Can you even still get *that* Camaro?

IIRC the V8 Racing cars were one/offs based on the old Riley GS.Rs, but that's a 7 year old car by now.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Officially...yes ;-)

Then again, the Nissan and Porsche 911 are also still available.

[FIRE]

the highly successful M235i Racing which already features standalone races and racing classes in Belgium, China and Germany with 170 examples of the club racer already built.

Source: DSC

Total of 170 cars...didn't know the car is so successful.

[merak1974]

Originally Posted by Marcel ten Caat

GT4 prices as they are supplied now...to compare with GT3 from 2006 ;-)

Aston Martin Vantage GT4 € 181.000
Chevrolet Camaro GT4 € 125.000
Ekris M4 GT4 € 165.000
Porsche Cayman Clubsport GT4 € 127.900 (+€ 35.000 for the MR kit)
SIN R1 GT4 € 146.200
McLaren 570S GT4 € 187.000

Do you know what Maserati charges for its GranTurismo GT4?

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Source: DSC

Total of 170 cars...didn't know the car is so successful.

They have their own series and have been racing them since 2014. I actually thought they would have sold more since the Cayman GT4 is up to around 450 worldwide.

[hondafan37]

New kit GT400 Evo for the KTM X-BOW in 2017
http://www.reiter-ktm.com/en/cars/ktm-x-bow.html
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/la-...volue-en-2017/

[Marcel ten Caat]

Misano, Brands Hatch, Red Bull Ring, Slovakia Ring, Zandvoort and Nürburgring confirmed for the 2017 GT4 European Series Northern Cup.

http://gt4series.com/2017-gt4-europe...dar-confirmed/

[Bcarr6]

Going to be an interesting year for the series. Not sure how a split Northern and Southern Cup formula will work, but hey, if it means a good entry in each race that's all that matters.

Great mix of circuits too


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[Bcarr6]

Ian James just possibly accidentally announced the Panoz GT4 for PWC in 2017.

Starts testing next month, Racing in march.

Tight timeline


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[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

Ian James just possibly accidentally announced the Panoz GT4 for PWC in 2017.

Starts testing next month, Racing in march.

Tight timeline


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GTS is going to be good this year!