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Old 10 Jun 2013, 09:33 (Ref:3260240)   #1
M Greenslade
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Marshal Killed in Accident at Canadian GP - Discussion of Issues

This sounds like a very tragic accident and our thoughts are very much with all those involved, friends, family and of course the crane driver. It does beg the question of bringing out such a large piece of machinery so late in the race to what would seem like a car in a relatively safe place. Agreeing with Martin Brundle that I hate seeing this sort of activity, our job can be dangerous enough without this.

RIP - Martin
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Old 10 Jun 2013, 09:48 (Ref:3260252)   #2
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This sounds like a very tragic accident and our thoughts are very much with all those involved, friends, family and of course the crane driver. It does beg the question of bringing out such a large piece of machinery so late in the race to what would seem like a car in a relatively safe place. Agreeing with Martin Brundle that I hate seeing this sort of activity, our job can be dangerous enough without this.

RIP - Martin
Fully agree with you. When I heard MB's commentary I thought quite right, leave it there with only 3 laps to go, and then out came a recovery vehicle!

Condolences to the family.
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Old 10 Jun 2013, 10:14 (Ref:3260264)   #3
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Do bear in mind that the incident occurred after the race while they were taking the car back to, i assume, the pits.

This may not be the time nor place, but on your point - I agree the 'live' clear up was totally unnecessary considering the proximity to the end of the session. It's not the first time we've seen over-eager marshaling at Isle Notre Dame though, is it? (Remember the chap, picking up debris, falling over on track infront of traffic a few years back?)

I think the mixture of it being a temporary circuit with not many dates and the inclusion of numerable foreign marshals (i spotted a few UK guys and gals i recognise from trackside - and i'm not even a marshall!) meaning that they are almost gagging for some action.
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Old 10 Jun 2013, 19:43 (Ref:3260555)   #4
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It's not the first time we've seen over-eager marshaling at Isle Notre Dame though, is it? (Remember the chap, picking up debris, falling over on track infront of traffic a few years back?)
Over-eager isn't restricted to Canadian GP.


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I think the mixture of it being a temporary circuit with not many dates and the inclusion of numerable foreign marshals (i spotted a few UK guys and gals i recognise from trackside - and i'm not even a marshall!) meaning that they are almost gagging for some action.
I find this a quite untrue and unpleasant comment. I know many people marshalling at the event, both British and North American. None would be behaving any differently to them being at Silverstone or Donington or Mallory.
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Old 10 Jun 2013, 23:18 (Ref:3260669)   #5
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it was a very confusing end of race on comms... those that heard it knew something bad had happened, but not exactly how bad... the speeding ambulance and R1 car blaring a siren going counter race was confirmation how serious the incident was.


I'm new to marshalling and all, but I'm a firm believer that the way things are done in Australia and Singapore with lots of redundant safety training even on the race weekend to refresh people's skills and expectations should be done in North America.
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 09:29 (Ref:3262004)   #6
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Having just got back from Canada, I read this thread with both pride (In what "We" as UK Marshals feel for our fallen Canadian Marshal) and disgust at what twaddle has also been written - mainly by PEAT, who, as he/she says, isn't a Marshal.

If I may clarify a couple of his/her comments ........
The "Over-Eager" Marshalling A Couple Of Years Ago, was actually in 2010 and was a result of poor communication from Race Control that the track was clear to go and remove the debris (SC was out) however, RC failed to notice that cars were pitting under the SC and as such, some were not in the "Train" and when released from the pits, were at speed trying to catch the back of the "Train"
Therefore, the Marshal in question was not being "Over-Eager" - but responding to instruction from RC. It's unfortunate that he fell over! I believe that changes in organisation have been made since then.

As for "Gagging For Some Action" - that's pretty insulting! I was at turn 3 on Qualifying Day and had a few cars that needed pushing. One exception was the Massa crash that required a red flag.
Having been a Marshal for 20 years now, I've got past the "Gagging" for anything........I haven't done "Incident" Marshalling for 12 years so was rather hoping for minimal action.

Peat, old chap/girl, why don't you come and spend a day on the bank with me?
I do not bear a grudge but would be willing to educate you as to what Marshalling entails. That goes for anybody on here who feels they can do our job better - we're always up for improving!

To conclude, both Jan (The other UK Marshal involved in the Massa incident) and I have received an FIA commendation for our contribution over the weekend. I don't usually blow my own trumpet - but hey, why not this time!
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 09:43 (Ref:3262014)   #7
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Saw you both on TV. Well done to both of you.
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 09:56 (Ref:3262020)   #8
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Well, firstly i'am surprised/flattered that my throw-away comments stirred such a "reaction".

Let me clarify some things.

I have marshaled for BARC at Thruxton twice (Well, 1x training day & 1x meeting). It was 'ok'. I did it primarily for a signature on my race license but I enjoyed it. I am glad i did it but just don't feel like i want to do it again any time soon.

My comments are, quite clearly, uninformed. From the comfort of my sofa, i am not party to the on-post communications. But, this in itself raises a point. Perhaps marshal's have a bit of an image problem to those outside? I have, myself defended marshals (as a whole) when they have come under criticism from my racing peers for handling of situations.

The comments possibly stick out like a sore thumb in the Marshal section of a forum, as it is most commonly frequented by...... marshals. But believe me, my comments are tame compared with some of the things i've heard cast in your direction over the years.

I will accept that this thread was the wrong place for such comments though. And for that, i am sorry and sorry for any offence it caused at this sensitive time.

Congratulations to you and Jan (is that the lady with the Panda hat?) on your commendations.

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Old 13 Jun 2013, 10:52 (Ref:3262048)   #9
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 11:09 (Ref:3262058)   #10
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Is Jan on here?
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 11:13 (Ref:3262061)   #11
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 11:51 (Ref:3262085)   #12
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Originally Posted by Peat View Post
Well, firstly i'am surprised/flattered that my throw-away comments stirred such a "reaction".

Let me clarify some things.

I have marshaled for BARC at Thruxton twice (Well, 1x training day & 1x meeting). It was 'ok'. I did it primarily for a signature on my race license but I enjoyed it. I am glad i did it but just don't feel like i want to do it again any time soon.

My comments are, quite clearly, uninformed. From the comfort of my sofa, i am not party to the on-post communications. But, this in itself raises a point. Perhaps marshal's have a bit of an image problem to those outside? I have, myself defended marshals (as a whole) when they have come under criticism from my racing peers for handling of situations.

The comments possibly stick out like a sore thumb in the Marshal section of a forum, as it is most commonly frequented by...... marshals. But believe me, my comments are tame compared with some of the things i've heard cast in your direction over the years.

I will accept that this thread was the wrong place for such comments though. And for that, i am sorry and sorry for any offence it caused at this sensitive time.

Congratulations to you and Jan (is that the lady with the Panda hat?) on your commendations.

Peat
I have raced and marshalled in my life and have seen both sides of the game.........no matter what has been said on here it doesn't change the fact that someone has lost their life doing what they love. can we a least have a touch of respect?.......my thoughts are with all involved.
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Old 13 Jun 2013, 22:55 (Ref:3262356)   #13
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Having just got back from Canada, I read this thread with both pride (In what "We" as UK Marshals feel for our fallen Canadian Marshal) and disgust at what twaddle has also been written - mainly by PEAT, who, as he/she says, isn't a Marshal.

If I may clarify a couple of his/her comments ........
The "Over-Eager" Marshalling A Couple Of Years Ago, was actually in 2010 and was a result of poor communication from Race Control that the track was clear to go and remove the debris (SC was out) however, RC failed to notice that cars were pitting under the SC and as such, some were not in the "Train" and when released from the pits, were at speed trying to catch the back of the "Train"
Therefore, the Marshal in question was not being "Over-Eager" - but responding to instruction from RC. It's unfortunate that he fell over! I believe that changes in organisation have been made since then.

As for "Gagging For Some Action" - that's pretty insulting! I was at turn 3 on Qualifying Day and had a few cars that needed pushing. One exception was the Massa crash that required a red flag.
Having been a Marshal for 20 years now, I've got past the "Gagging" for anything........I haven't done "Incident" Marshalling for 12 years so was rather hoping for minimal action.

Peat, old chap/girl, why don't you come and spend a day on the bank with me?
I do not bear a grudge but would be willing to educate you as to what Marshalling entails. That goes for anybody on here who feels they can do our job better - we're always up for improving!

To conclude, both Jan (The other UK Marshal involved in the Massa incident) and I have received an FIA commendation for our contribution over the weekend. I don't usually blow my own trumpet - but hey, why not this time!
The the race where guy who fell over in through "over eagerness" was Canada 2011
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 09:03 (Ref:3262546)   #14
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[admin]
Folks, out of respect for both those who wish to discuss the incident and those who wish to express their condolences - and more importantly, anyone closely related to this incident who may read the forum, this thread has now been split into two. Please bear in mind that anything you say is publically available on the internet and may even come up in a Google search. If you don't want it in the media - and particularly if you don't want it read by anyone who may have been personally affected by this tragic death - then don't say it.

I'm all for discussion of Safety - particularly when something this awful happens. However, please note:
  1. We do not discuss individual incidents - posts alleging misconduct on behalf of anyone involved in this incident will be removed - not because we're trying to suppress discussion but because the only people who have any idea what really happened are those who were there. Anything else is idle speculation, unhelpful and disrespectful. General discussion of the circumstances and how things may be made safer is perfectly ok though.
  2. Marshals are not inviolable and above criticism. I haven't seen it here yet, but it's certainly happened on Social Media. Anyone going up in flames because someone has suggested that Marshals are less than perfect can expect to have their posts removed as well. Reasoned discussion is perfectly ok though.

On a personal note, if I see anyone attempting to post a youtube link to the animated version of this incident on this forum again, not only will they be banned, but I will personally write a letter of complaint about that person to the MSA and any marshalling clubs of which I think they are a member and name and shame them publically on this forum. People dying is NOT entertainment and promoting it is so far beyond acceptable that I don't even have words for it.

[/admin]


Now on the subject in question, one thing that has been mentioned a lot is that he dropped his radio and was trying to pick it up. Personally, that's happened to me a lot on the way to incidents, particularly if getting on and off banks or clambering over tyre walls. Never have I given it any thought other than to stop and pick it up. Leaving it isn't even an option as it's connected to a fistmike so it will just drag on the ground behind me.

Should we be looking at requesting that radios are issued with pouches that can be clipped on to a belt?
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 09:45 (Ref:3262566)   #15
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Should we be looking at requesting that radios are issued with pouches that can be clipped on to a belt?
I've found that it's actually RARE to get a fist mic in the UK, so a radio has to be clipped wherever it can be accessable. As for the clips on radios, they are easy to get off a belt, again for accessability.

My personal preference is to have a fist mic, and indeed, until recently I had two fist mics of my own (one with standard pins and one with "Motorola" pins) I also use what's really a small camera case that my belt fully goes THROUGH rather than a clip. Radio goes in the case, case has a proper plastic clip/lock and the fist mic goes on the overalls.

So, relatively low cost way for organising clubs and circuits to help mitigate against this.... provide fist mics for all radios, that way users can keep the main radio in a pouch or a pocket and not have it anywhere it can drop off.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 09:52 (Ref:3262570)   #16
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Ive never had a "fist mike" in the UK. Before the smutty remarks I will point out that the "fist mike" is a small hand held press to talk mike and speaker that is connected to the radio via the same connector that a headset is conneceted to. I have used radios with headsets, however if the radio does fall off your person it would normally drag the headset off as well.

I, like others, would automatically stoop to pick up a dropped item as it is an automatic instinct. Due to the poor unfortunate incident to our Canadian colleague I will be thinking twice about my actions when working with snatch / recovery vehicles (which i often do work with) in the future.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 10:44 (Ref:3262590)   #17
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It's also worth noting that I would always advise marshals that when working with Snatch/JCB vehicle to keep eye contact with the driver of the snatch vehicle.

The visibility on the righthand side of the vehicle near on disappears once the boom is raised.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 10:53 (Ref:3262592)   #18
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It's also worth noting that I would always advise marshals that when working with Snatch/JCB vehicle to keep eye contact with the driver of the snatch vehicle.

The visibility on the righthand side of the vehicle near on disappears once the boom is raised.
Understood, but that can be easier said than done, depending on the size and type of the vehicle.

Maybe we need to be looking at the whole process and have a designated spotter on retrieval teams whose sole duty is to communicate with the driver? I know it may not be workable at smaller events, but then neither is the two by two power/foam formation but we still teach it as best practice where possible. Thoughts?
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 11:13 (Ref:3262599)   #19
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Whenever i do snatch I always ask that one of the incident team watches my back and to pass messages on from the snatch driver. If its an end of race recovery I will supervise the team whilst they are moving the car and alert them to any ossible dangers i.e. not getting between car and recovery vehicle, not going under a lifted car etc.

As for the 2 x 2 fire fighting that we teach, well i think that shuld be raised in a separate discussion as i think it should be taught as 1 x 1.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 11:33 (Ref:3262604)   #20
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I think that recoveries done as straight tows need to be brought into the discussion. I really don't want to see marshals in the whiplash-zone in case a strop or shackle breaks. Something I/Os need to focus on.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 13:16 (Ref:3262642)   #21
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True. I do move marshals away from strops and tow ropes if i think they are too near. I have seen a tow rope shatter the rear screen of a car but this was due to a poorly fitted towing eye.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 18:38 (Ref:3262746)   #22
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Last training day I did, we had the opportunity to sit in a race car to see how limited drivers visibility is.

Maybe training should include sitting in the snatch vehicle to see where the drivers can see and where the blind spots are.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 19:14 (Ref:3262755)   #23
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I know it's something that some snatch drivers at Silverstone do. Those that are attending the GP, please don't be afraid to ask.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 20:56 (Ref:3262809)   #24
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You sometimes see a damper, such as a blanket, hung over a tow rope in case it snaps. Does anyone have any experience of this, or know whether it is actually effective? It could be kept in the recovery vehicle.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 21:08 (Ref:3262816)   #25
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"Last training day I did, we had the opportunity to sit in a race car to see how limited drivers visibility is.

Maybe training should include sitting in the snatch vehicle to see where the drivers can see and where the blind spots are."


The old saying is,
If you cant see the drivers eyes, then he cant see you.
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