[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[S griffin]

You see, only he sees 12 million is any good. I doubt Honda will leave though

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It all sounds great but "cheap" for F1 is still astronomical. The target for the new F1 engine cost is around $12m - $14m to sell to a privateer. The engine alone is several times more expensive than the entire budget for a privateer LMP1 team.

Toto Wolff: "On the other side we have found an agreement with the FIA to reduce the prices to all engine customers over the next years to levels that are the lowest ever in F1.

"I think if you get this kind of engine at prices like $12-14m, which is what we're trying to achieve, I have no understanding for somebody that claims the engines are too expensive."

He's got a pretty short memory if he thinks that's the cheapest ever price but shows how crazy and insular F1 is.

I wonder if the engine would be less expensive if you only had 6 or 7 races instead of 22? That might be something that could tempt lmp1 teams and f1 engine manufacturers. If someone like Aston Martin is thinking about doing f1 engines and future lmp1 I could see this taking place. Also with the way things look now, it seems less reliance on the hybrid in lmp1 is certain. That would be even closer to the way f1 is in how they make their power.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

I wonder if the engine would be less expensive if you only had 6 or 7 races instead of 22?

If nothing was changed about the engines, they would be MORE expensive.

F1 races generally last around 90 minutes, while the WEC races run 6 hours plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Assuming 5 non Le Mans races, that's a total of 54 hours of racing in WEC(30 of them the non-Le Mans rounds) vs a total of 33 hours for 22 F1 races. Even if all the F1 races lasted to their two-hour time limit, they'd still run 10 hours less than WEC.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

If nothing was changed about the engines, they would be MORE expensive.

F1 races generally last around 90 minutes, while the WEC races run 6 hours plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Assuming 5 non Le Mans races, that's a total of 54 hours of racing in WEC(30 of them the non-Le Mans rounds) vs a total of 33 hours for 22 F1 races. Even if all the F1 races lasted to their two-hour time limit, they'd still run 10 hours less than WEC.

F1 also has 3 FPs and a qualifying session, 22 times. If a practice session is 90 minutes long and a car runs only 30 minutes of it, that's an additional 90 minutes, plus maybe 15 minutes on track during qualifying. 105 minutes additional per weekend, which is an addtional 38.5 hours throughout the year.

So that's 71 hours of track time, approximately. The same maths, plus a little more for Le Mans weekend, takes it to around 67.5.

Basically, 5 WEC races plus Le Mans is around the equivalent of 22 F1 races. But that doesn't start to talk about times between rebuilds, limit of components etc. Either way, you're not going to bring an engine cost down from $14m to $1m.

Toto already thinks they're cheap enough. From his point of view he's correct, because he's the one selling them, so he'd love to make some more money. Nothing from F1 will transfer over - their idea of cheap is ridiculous compared to the rest of motorsport.

[S griffin]

Yes F1 has enough running on a weekend and it depends how long they run in practice. Really there are maybe about 2 too many races on the F1 calendar, may need to bring it down again. Really Le Mans can go it's own way, it's not comparable to F1

WEC has done the right thing to cap the number of races per season. But it is still expensive. If they want to use power units they need to do so with caution. Toto knows that he will get plenty from selling his engines, that's what he does. It's probably a bad idea for another series to try and copy F1's ideas

[TF110]

I agree the price is too high right now. But we'll see. If someone like Aston Martin wants to do both, they may just use the same engine. F1 uses a lot more engines per year than the WEC ever will. It's not just because of the shorter running but because they fail and that's inevitable. So you have to factor in the price of the 21, 22 weekends, spares, support, upgrades etc. The WEC has 6 or 7 weekends and the test day + Le Mans week which is a lot lower even if it has longer run-time. If I were an F1 engine manufacturer that wanted in the Le Mans scene, I would offer a slightly revised engine based on the future F1 unit and lease/sell it at a lesser price. They won't have to worry about the latest upgrades or brand new engines every year if the Super Season format stays in place. And from what the talk is, part of the reduced price comes in the form of not having to worry about the extreme upgrade nature that F1 has. So you could make your engine purchase/lease and not have to worry about it being out of date a few months or even a year or two from now.

Haven't seen this posted, but more from Todt on manufacturers in 'GTP' https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...20-21-1037904/

[S griffin]

It’s certainly too high for WEC. I think if someone like Aston wants to do either F1 or WEC it would be better off doing F1. More bang for your buck and more track time. Personally I’m not much of a fan of this super season, but it’s not too much of a problem

I’m not sure how much longer the WEC will go on for. Certainly if F1 ever gives up the PUs, WEC might pick them up. Todt needs to do something

[Mike E]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...placement.html

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...ototype-class/

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I think I'm going to be sick.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I think I'm going to be sick.

I agree with keeping a hybrid solution, available for private cars. I agree with hyper-car shape and aero restrictions.
I only hope they will not require a single kind of engine.

[Irie]

How do you do styling cues in a a non spec class? Surely this is not the best aerodynamic solution. Let's hope we will not get BoP in the top class

[joeb]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

I agree with keeping a hybrid solution, available for private cars. I agree with hyper-car shape and aero restrictions.
I only hope they will not require a single kind of engine.

No mention of private cars like we have currently from Oreca, BR, Kolles, Ginetta....

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by joeb

No mention of private cars like we have currently from Oreca, BR, Kolles, Ginetta....

Presence of private cars is implied:

"Also likely is a proposal that manufacturer power units (engine plus hybrid system) must be available to non-factory entrants."

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Presence of private cars is implied:

"Also likely is a proposal that manufacturer power units (engine plus hybrid system) must be available to non-factory entrants."

I guess that implies they can still build LMP style chassis?

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by Irie

How do you do styling cues in a a non spec class? Surely this is not the best aerodynamic solution. Let's hope we will not get BoP in the top class

A BoP in this kind of GTP category would be a nightmare and the end of the spirit of this championship.

[TF110]

If they stay with the current type of rules for the power management, then I see no reason why it will be hard to equalize the competition. There's already aero parameters they have in consideration and they want the speeds of the new cars to be what it is today. With a less powerful hybrid, that means they'll have to open up the engines more. So we'll be seeing and hopefully hearing more powerful engines instead of the reliance on hybrid. I'm excited!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by joeb

I guess that implies they can still build LMP style chassis?

I guess we could see some designated areas on the chassis that can be used for non-aero-effective styling cues on the manufacturer cars and need to be left blank on the privateer cars.

Gesendet von meinem SM-A320FL mit Tapatalk

[Sodemo]

I'm a little confused as to what I make of all of this.

So if the plan is to use road cars (hypercars?) as a base, does that mean that Ferrari has to start with a LaFerrari tub off the production line? Or are they still designing a total prototype which has nothing to do with their road cars, but just merely may have "styling" cues for that manufacturer? If thats the case, why would an independant team bother with styling their car like a road car?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

From what I can read it definitely seems the latter. Independent teams seem to not have to bother with styling.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I think I'm going to be sick.

This is the worst thing that has ever happened.

After I’ve read those articles I’ll confirm which bit is the worst thing, but rest assured it is.

[Akrapovic]

I'm skeptical over what we'll get from this. Modern hypercars like the Valkyrie are quite similar in profile to things like the Mercedes CLR and Porsche 911 GT1. Since those days we've made the cars thinner (to slow them in corners), have wider cockpits (to add drag and aid driver safety), added fins (to stop take offs), added honking holes (to stop take offs). All of these have a massive effect on the style.

I don't see how we can go down the hypercar route without rolling back all of these safety features. Maybe there are solutions, but I'm not seeing anything obvious right now.

The limit on hybrid power and availability of power units to privateers is a good thing. Hybrids are good - they just need to be sustainable now.

[Adam43]

We are light on detail. As maybe the ACO are at this stage I’m fine with the principle, as someone who enjoyed the brief period in the mid-late ‘90s, but the proof will be in the pudding.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I'm a little confused as to what I make of all of this.

So if the plan is to use road cars (hypercars?) as a base, does that mean that Ferrari has to start with a LaFerrari tub off the production line? Or are they still designing a total prototype which has nothing to do with their road cars, but just merely may have "styling" cues for that manufacturer? If thats the case, why would an independant team bother with styling their car like a road car?

I think it was Graham Goodwin that mentioned this, don't quote me I may have the wrong person, but said to think; Mercedes Benz CLR as a good example of what the rules are aiming for.



I'm all for this. One of the best shaped prototypes imo. That was purely a prototype but it was all Mercedes and definitely recognized as such.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think it was Graham Goodwin that mentioned this, don't quote me I may have the wrong person, but said to think; Mercedes Benz CLR as a good example of what the rules are aiming for.



I'm all for this. One of the best shaped prototypes imo. That was purely a prototype but it was all Mercedes and definitely recognized as such.

Yeah, that's what I'm picturing, but I don't see how they'll make it safe. I'd love it if they could mind you.

But trying to regulate good looks is a difficult thing. Remember that the concept behind Daytona Prototypes was to try and make them look like a modern version of the Ford GT40. That was so far off the mark it's hard to believe.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

All I want is for the dreaded three competition destroying letters to stay as far away as possible from this. I will take a lot of compromises but not that.