Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

They run a business and want to maximise the return from that business as any sensible person would do. By what measure do they charge too much AKA rip other teams off? If the other teams boycotted the items and bought elsewhere then they would have two choices, lower the price or get out of the supply chain for the series.

When they are control parts, other teams have no choices.

Competitive teams shouldn't be allowed to supply control parts. Control parts should be the preserve of Harrop Engineering, Garry Rogers Motorsport, Pace Engineering etc -- independents only.

Garry Rogers Motorsport have always been very good at building parts on at an affordable cost -- it is shameful that Supercars haven't relied heavily on GRM to help develop Gen 3, now that GRM are not a competitor V8 Supercar team...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

When they are control parts, other teams have no choices.

Yeah they do, they have a choice during the bidding process. People act as if the teams are beholden to 888 as if they are taken hostage. Any of them are able to bid against 888 at the control part stage. Why didn't Tickford or Penske win control part bids? Because they chose not to.

How many people sit on the Supercars board to make these decisions? How many of those seats are held by 888?

You do realise that as a business with shareholders, if the tender process excluded teams for no valid reason, and GRM was a more expensive bidder than 888RE for example, that shareholders could sue the management?

I think many of the cost overruns in COTF have related to things like brakes and the transaxles which 888 has nothing to do with. Does anybody really give a **** if 888 outsource parts for a pedal box to India? There is absurd fixation here over minutia that simply doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Competitive teams shouldn't be allowed to supply control parts. Control parts should be the preserve of Harrop Engineering, Garry Rogers Motorsport, Pace Engineering etc -- independents only.

Any and all of those bodies can bid for any work that they like. It's like saying nobody should have let Perkins Engineering sell engines or cars in their era. It's ridiculous and has no basis in reality.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Garry Rogers Motorsport have always been very good at building parts on at an affordable cost -- it is shameful that Supercars haven't relied heavily on GRM to help develop Gen 3, now that GRM are not a competitor V8 Supercar team...

So why then did GRM not outbid 888 for any and all control parts? GRM also now literally have what, 45% ownership now of the promoter for TCR. If that was 888 owning 45% of Supercars and bidding on TCR parts, the screams of conflict of interest would be deafening.

[Spec83]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Agree - not only that but it's set up for Hybrid power adding as well. Could work here with a few tweaks (such as bigger brakes for example).

If they simply copied yeah but Supercars have had contact with NASCAR for quite a few years so something might be worked out.

Yep you would need to licence the tech from NASCAR, not just copy it - their process are all setup and the next gen car actually looks ok given they are no longer offset and have centrelocks etc.

The supercar engines should drop straight in, throw a flow restrictor in there for good measure to stop the chase for horsepower by making airflow the limiting factor.

Only hurdle might be the whole conversion to RHD thing, I imagine the safety cell is heavily focused on LHD protection and might not be so easy to just ‘flip’ over.


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[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by one five five

Why are Supercars spending all this time and money to develop purpose built Mustang’s & Camaro’s with V8 engines going when a series with purpose built Mustang’s & Camaro’s with V8 engines running already exists....?

The mind boggles..... times were simpler when CAMS ran the ATCC and could just apply an appropriate ruleset to the title....



Do a Bob Jane style deal?

The Repco Cup Series has a nice ring to it.....

The TA2's aren't exactly cars for an A Level racing series. They're not even cars for an A Level racing series where I'm from.

Maybe they'll be in NZ but that speaks more to the situation they've put themselves in.

[Compromised]

* Everyone (fans, drivers, team owners) come out against paddle shift.

* Jamie comes out in Speedcafe in favor of paddle shift

* Suggestions paddle shift WILL be in Gen3


Hmmmmmm.....

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Compromised

* Everyone (fans, drivers, team owners) come out against paddle shift.

* Jamie comes out in Speedcafe in favor of paddle shift

* Suggestions paddle shift WILL be in Gen3


Hmmmmmm.....

Exactly my thought. Retarded, isn't it?
Can we expect 'GT-style' steering wheels then? It's also an idea only Whincup is for...

[Mixer]

You figured it out! The Lizard people have put Jamie in charge!

Or maybe he doesn't hate it like others do, he sees the way the wind is blowing and decides to say he supports it.

Maybe?

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[V8 Fireworks]

Chassis number two ready for paint and assembly, complete with brackets for control front suspension!



https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/05/19...type-revealed/

Some good Gen 3 milestones for this exciting new era of the Australian Touring Car Championship.

The semi-solid bulkhead on the main hoop shows why the digital rear view mirror is necessary.

I wonder why the bolt-on and bolt-off points of the front and rear clips aren't closer to the main hoop and forward hoop, in order to make the chassis easier to repair!? Seems most curious.

[bloggs]

Are Supercars going to have Two chassis or do they have to choose one only?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

The TA2's aren't exactly cars for an A Level racing series. They're not even cars for an A Level racing series where I'm from.

Maybe they'll be in NZ but that speaks more to the situation they've put themselves in.

What constitutes a car for an A level racing series?

[B!tchie Renault]

hmmm. What is with the panelling in the B Pillar behind the drivers head. Is this the new firewall isolating the fuel from the main cabin? Could it not be done as a 'parcel shelf' alleviating the need for the digital rear view camera?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by one five five

What constitutes a car for an A level racing series?

DTM is very much A-level.

It seems a shame that Supercars cannot agree a set of regulations with Berger's DTM which would (crucially) ensure the participation of performance car brands like BMW and Audi in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

Gen 3 has so far done little to attract brands from Milan, Munich or Stuggart, with only brands from Detroit seemingly willing to participate.

For instance on the matter of crate engines, we have only heard about the 6.2L Chevrolet LS and 5.0L Ford Coyote, as yet not a word about eligibility of Mercedes' fabled 6.2L GT3 V8, Audi's famed 5.2L GT3 V10, Toyota's famed 2UR-GSE neither BMW's 4.4L twin-turbo GT3 V8!? No mention either of Supercars developing an Audi RS5, Mercedes C63, Lexus LC500 or BMW M850i aero kit!?

It's as if Supercars has little initative to incorporate touring cars of origin beyond Michigan?

[V8 Fireworks]

This goes pretty much in the opposite direction of what was mentioned at the beginning of this story. DTM, while not exactly touring car-based today, has historically always been a touring car series. DTM’s acronym is short for Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters, with ‘tourenwagen’ literally meaning touring car. But like we mentioned earlier, there’s little remaining of that today. Today’s DTM cars are a weird Frankenstein’s monster-esque fusion between a touring car and a GT racer. They are still built to resemble the road cars that you could order at your local dealership tomorrow, but underneath, they are purpose-built silhouette racers.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/...dis-departure/

Sound familiar?

DTM have yet to announce what they are doing beyond their temporary GT3 regulations... A cheap tubular spaceframe with a simplistic spool diff, skinny tyres, a cheap crate engine and provision for a hybrid system (aka Supercars Gen 3) might be exactly what the doctor ordered for next-gen DTM.

Has Seamer fired up a Zoom call with Berger?

[Casper]

But that does not answer the question, it just in your view points out that DTM is an A level racing series. As I keep pointing out the series is fast running out of platforms to run a silhouette series and where to after that. None of the manufacturers are going to pour money into a series whose ethos is a four door sedan or even a 2 door sedan/coupe because that type of car is doomed in the market place. Any series using the same basis is in the same boat but the motor racing community hasn't received the memo yet. It is not whether the world is going electric and it is but whether the design and style of car we race even exists at all. Ferrari have already announced that they will build an SUV and they were most probably the last major hold out. https://www.caradvice.com.au/923179/...t%20changed”.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

DTM is very much A-level.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question. To me, what I expect is that the cars should stand out in some way. The current Supercars have a wonderful combination of high-tech solutions, old-school philosophies and performance that make them a challenge even when the best drivers in the would have a go at them.

In some ways it's a shame that the potential of a Class I regulation never was fulfilled. It could have given us a strong national series, a variation in cars and probably a couple of international teams at the Enduros. But I'm happy that Supercars stayed as far away as possible from what it actually became - those cars seem like they would have been hot nonsense around the Aussie tracks. If anything, Germany and Japan should have built on the Supercars regs. That could have given us the true successor to Group A internationally. But I that opportunity probably has passed by now.

[one five five]

Looking at the chassis, what happens now if a new manufacturer wanted to enter a 4-door car?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question. To me, what I expect is that the cars should stand out in some way. The current Supercars have a wonderful combination of high-tech solutions, old-school philosophies and performance that make them a challenge even when the best drivers in the would have a go at them.

In some ways it's a shame that the potential of a Class I regulation never was fulfilled. It could have given us a strong national series, a variation in cars and probably a couple of international teams at the Enduros. But I'm happy that Supercars stayed as far away as possible from what it actually became - those cars seem like they would have been hot nonsense around the Aussie tracks. If anything, Germany and Japan should have built on the Supercars regs. That could have given us the true successor to Group A internationally. But I that opportunity probably has passed by now.

I agree with you.
When it comes to Class One I believe Supercars are a bit more exciting to watch. Yes, Class One cars were bloody fast and beautiful and I enjoyed it but Supercars seem more 'pure' and more touring car, that's for sure.

Any collab between Supercars and DTM would be amazing actually, Mercedes, Audi, BMW would fit fantastically in Gen 3 rules, providing for 1990s style of DTM. They're also cheaper than GT3 cars so even better. For Supercars it would also be benefitial as German brands may join - and vice versa. Mustang in DTM? I'm all for that!

The only problem is that such a scenario is rather unlikely. I've always been fond of the idea that DTM should become a 'German Supercars' (or European) but Berger, let alone Aufrecht never acknowledged that something like this may happen. Even after Mattias Ekstrom said that Supercars are way more enjoyable to drive than DTM cars. It's a shame as Supercars ruleset seems exactly what Gerhard Berger is looking for.

[Casper]

DTM has exactly the same problem as SC....lack of manufacturer interest and it is more likely closer to death than SC. Anew four door car won't happen because there is no manufacturer interest in the design these days and suitable cars are very thin on the ground. It is a worldwide motorsport problem as the take up to SUV's accelerates in the market place.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

DTM is very much A-level.

It seems a shame that Supercars cannot agree a set of regulations with Berger's DTM which would (crucially) ensure the participation of performance car brands like BMW and Audi in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

Gen 3 has so far done little to attract brands from Milan, Munich or Stuggart, with only brands from Detroit seemingly willing to participate.

For instance on the matter of crate engines, we have only heard about the 6.2L Chevrolet LS and 5.0L Ford Coyote, as yet not a word about eligibility of Mercedes' fabled 6.2L GT3 V8, Audi's famed 5.2L GT3 V10, Toyota's famed 2UR-GSE neither BMW's 4.4L twin-turbo GT3 V8!? No mention either of Supercars developing an Audi RS5, Mercedes C63, Lexus LC500 or BMW M850i aero kit!?

Why would supercars be responsible for covering the costs to building Audi, Mercedes, BMW etc aero kits or their v8 engines. Last I remember Supercars made a point that these companies are welcome to enter, but would need to develop an aero kit and engine package with a team here. i.e spend some of their euros not rely on supercars to do it.

Supercars are doing the camaro and mustang because it makes commercial sense and the majority of fans support those two brands. Yes holden is now chev, but many Australian fans grew up putting chev badges on their holden ss commodores.
It's as if Supercars has little initative to incorporate touring cars of origin beyond Michigan?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Why would supercars be responsible for covering the costs to building Audi, Mercedes, BMW etc aero kits or their v8 engines. Last I remember Supercars made a point that these companies are welcome to enter, but would need to develop an aero kit and engine package with a team here. i.e spend some of their euros not rely on supercars to do it.

Supercars are doing the camaro and mustang because it makes commercial sense and the majority of fans support those two brands. Yes holden is now chev, but many Australian fans grew up putting chev badges on their holden ss commodores.
It's as if Supercars has little initative to incorporate touring cars of origin beyond Michigan?

So you're saying Supercars will help Ford/Chev but not others...

Hmmmm....makes you wonder why there's no manufacturer interest.... In a parity series where literal favoritism is on display... very curious

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Supercars are doing the camaro and mustang because it makes commercial sense and the majority of fans support those two brands.

What makes you think that the majority of ATCC fans like American cars? That doesn't seem right at all.

Recall that in the past fans might have spent their weekends tinkering with their 1999 BMW Z3M or 1999 Mazda RX-7, but they didn't even have a chance to support those brands in the ATCC as they weren't invited... And even when they did have works teams, they could rightly feel the ATCC regulators did not seem to have BMW or Mazda's best interests to compete for outright victory at heart.

Supercars really needs to go above and beyond to ensure the relevant Asian and European brands that people aspire to own, like Genesis, Lexus, Audi, and Mercedes, are represented on the grid, and can compete for victories. The increasingly diminishing profile of the ATCC (with no Adelaide 500 for instance) is insufficient to attract these brands in it's own right.

If the ATCC continues to project the image of being an Americana series, these brands will (understandably) be uninterested.

All people want to see is a healthy Australian Touring Car Championship with a wide variety of makes and cars (i.e. touring cars), the way it's supposed to be! Is it so much to ask!?

[Casper]

SC is living in the past and is refusing to address the big problems as do those who comment on it. Tell me what manufacturer is going to enter with a four door sedan when they are actively removing that style of car from the market place. I suppose those who refuse to see this will also say the earth is flat.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Tell me what manufacturer is going to enter with a four door sedan when they are actively removing that style of car from the market place.

Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Nissan and Toyota all have two-door coupes for now at least.

Some are two-seaters, some are four-seaters. Hopefully Supercars haven't been remiss and forgotten to ensure the chassis is compatible (at the very least) with the two-seater Nissan 400Z and Toyota Supra, which are coupes in a similar price bracket to the Mustang and Camaro.


Understandably no manufacturer is going to pay to enter the minor-interest ATCC series, Supercars will need to pay for them as a matter of good faith -- which is fine. That is what they are doing with Chevrolet after all.

The fact Gen 3 is announced as Mustang/Camaro and not 400Z/Supra/Mustang/Camaro with an evenly distributed grid is very disappointing. It's as if Supercars are unwilling to repay the faith which Nissan showed in the ultimately troubled Car-of-the-Future regulations, nor sweeten the deal for Australia's favourite car brand...

Surely Nissan participation should be an equal priority to Chevrolet at least!?


Setting a limit of 8 cars per manufacturer would help to encourage variety...

The Nissan V8 already exists in ~600hp form (even if the cylinder head blanks for the full, no longer required, 650hp is no longer available), so there should be at least 6 to 8 Nissan 400Zs on the grid instead of an excessive number of Camaros. Given the revised regulations, running the Nissan VK56 at the original 5.6L capacity would also be an option.

The TRD 5.0 V8 is also readily available and was used in the NZV8 series Camry.

PS. Unless I'm very much mistaken, I believe the Nissan 400Z takes the award for "most rectangular grille ever fitted on a car"?



It's almost as if Supercars administration are ignorant to the notion that a lot of people love the Toyota and Nissan brands a lot more than they do the Ford and Chevrolet brands!? Plus a lot of people love Audi, BMW and Mercedes although (to be fair) those brands are not in the same price range.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Nissan and Toyota all have two-door coupes for now at least.

Some are two-seaters, some are four-seaters. Hopefully Supercars haven't been remiss and forgotten to ensure the chassis is compatible with the two-seater Nissan 400Z and Toyota Supra.

Yes there are plenty of 2 and 4 door models!

The prestige mnftrs still make them for a reason!

Touring car racing has historically seen performance and/or up market models as well as shopping cars used by mnftrs to promote their brand. The big cars are still seen as aspirational and the shopping cars appeal to Joe Public.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Casper

SC is living in the past and is refusing to address the big problems as do those who comment on it. Tell me what manufacturer is going to enter with a four door sedan when they are actively removing that style of car from the market place. I suppose those who refuse to see this will also say the earth is flat.

Limiting the series to four-door rear wheel sedans would probably be unwise. But you could probably have a more open attituted to what makes a "touring car" and get a decent mix of cars, especially if there can be big and small brands. You could look to the late 70's and early 80's for inspiration, when things like the Falcon XC, Torana and RX-7 competed.

However, if you can crack a way of turning SUV's into decent racing cars I guess you'd be on to something. Right now I have a far easier time seeing rallying make that leap than touring cars.