Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by mayhem

I'm not convinced Fox wont want the Supercars (at a reduced rate) in the future.

Being on Fox makes it more difficult to find sponsors (or attract new or casual fans), yet Supercars administration can't see that... It's baffling.

Originally Posted by mayhem

Something like racing MARC II cars would dramatically drop the costs and still be quick and exciting.

The European Union is going to continually cut motor vehicle emissions every year until 2032. Australia won't do that, but Supercars probably still needs to do something to acknowledge this transition.

Replacing the 5.0L engine with a turbocharged ~2.0L engine that produces the same 635hp but more efficiently (even without a hybrid system) could be one way to embrace the downsized future.

It would allow you to save about 50-70kg of weight on the front end of the car too (between a cast iron V8 and an alloy-block I4), quite the handling improvement!

Here is an example of a ~600hp Ford Ecoboost inline-four engine:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make...ost-read-find/

As in the Group A days when there was Sierra, 240, Starion, and DR30 Skyline with inline-fours, these kinds of engines sound great and are very fast and exciting indeed. It would be welcome return back to the turbocharged future that seemed so bright in the 1980s, before the (arguably) regressive ban on turbocharging in the 1993 ATCC came along.

For "no replacement for displacement" advocates, when downsize turbocharging seemed inevitable back in 1990, you've instead been able to delay it for 30 years! So you've already done rather well!

[V8 Fireworks]

A four-cylinder format may be the best chance of attracting a second manufacturer. (When I say the turbo four should be more efficient, I mean modern direct-injection, ultra lean combustion, high compression and so on should allow quite big gains in thermal efficiency compared to the current port injected 10:1 engines and thus allow for completing the races on less fuel. A more modern N/A engine would also have many of these advantages.)

Since the Toyota Supra comes with a four-cylinder option, the German coupes all have a four-cylinder, the Hyundai Genesis G70 sedan has a turbo four cylinder, as does the Alfa Romeo Giulia sedan, Mazda are rumoured to be working on RWD sedan or coupe on a shared platform with Toyota and Lexus...

There might need to be two different chassis for each coupe and sedan. But you only need one more manufacturer in addition to Ford and it should be OK.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It has potential. It was great in the BA Falcon and VF Commodore days. It was still solid in the FGX Falcon and VF Commodore days, albeit the field was getting a bit small (and still is), and ticket prices are too expensive in order to prop up the RECs (and still are, $250 for a four-day ticket for example).

However now, they are racing a mutant Mustang and an obsolete Holden Insignia, they have no commitments from any manufacturers for 2022 onwards, they have no plans on technical regulations going onwards... It's far from ideal IMO.

Some of the racers' racers are still here like your Joneses, Kellys, Johnsons & Walkinshaws which is good (others like the Morrises, Mundays, and Rogers however, have given it away), but are they provided with any vision from management on where the category will be in five years time?

Yes, I get your point of view and agree with it, however, Gen3 is still in the making and I'm sure everyone is vocal enough to make 'new' Supercars cheaper, less aero-dependant and possibly even more exciting. I still feel this is not out of control.
Yeah, the manufacturers factor is a bit worrying for the time being but Supercars are still not as factory-dependant sport as the DTM for example, which faces a huge crisis after withdrawal of Audi. In Supercars it's a bit different.
As you guys say, there are still areas to work on and the advantage of Supercars is, that even despite TCR Australia's existence, Supercars still is the top motorsport series in Australia. It doesn't have the same problems as DTM, for example. I may be a bit too optimistic about it but I really believe Supercars in not on its deathbed and it can still thrive.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Yes, I get your point of view and agree with it, however, Gen3 is still in the making......

I may be a bit too optimistic about it but I really believe Supercars in not on its deathbed and it can still thrive.

The problem with Gen 3 is what car(s) is it going to be built around, that is the biggest mystery. Optimism at this time is to be applauded as most onlookers are cautious with very little optimism.

[one five five]

Part of the issues fans have to do with Supercars is the politics of it and the way the organisation in charge has conducted itself and run the series and treated motor racing fans over the years.

The spectacle of big RWD V8 sedans themselves has never really been questioned

Originally Posted by Mixer

You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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Unreliable? The reliability of the new Group A cars far exceeded the reliability of Group C cars.

Not to mention in 1985 we had 1st and 2nd on the same lap at the end, something that had only happened in a Hardie once in the preceding seven years under Group C rules

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by one five five

Part of the issues fans have to do with Supercars is the politics of it and the way the organisation in charge has conducted itself and run the series and treated motor racing fans over the years.

The spectacle of big RWD V8 sedans themselves has never really been questioned

I think that you think thats more important than it is. Perhaps with rusted on 'motorsport' fans it might be significant, but with the pure Supercar fans, I doubt theyd know or care.

I'd say the biggest issue fans have (either casual or hardcore fans) is the TV broadcast deal, something Ive said the entire time was a mistake. But given the rock and hardplace Supercars (and the rest of televised sports) find themselves in, I think most fans would forgive Supercars if they are forced back into a similar (although reduced) deal this time.

Its then up to Supercars to save themselves from themselves by making the sport far more financially sustainable.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Its then up to Supercars to save themselves from themselves by making the sport far more financially sustainable.

I know I have been harping on it but that is not the core issue, they can reduce the costs to zero but out there in the real world if it has no commercial future then it is a dead duck. If SC can demonstrate to both the teams and the media companies that they have a sustainable product with good long term prospects and the teams can be rewarded adequatly meaning a good ROI then they will never have a problem selling RECS. The goose that laid the golden egg (television free or paid) appears to be on life support so the prime source of funding has disappeared and that instantly means the commercial reality took a big deep nose dive.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by mayhem

I think that you think thats more important than it is. Perhaps with rusted on 'motorsport' fans it might be significant, but with the pure Supercar fans, I doubt theyd know or care.

Of course it's important. Supercars hasn't "maximised its fanbase" otherwise. Therefore don't put themselves in the strongest positions of power in Australian motorsport.

All you done is demonstrate that supercars fans aren't actual motor racing fans. Therefore, their opinions should not be considered when it comes to wider Australian motorsport issues.

Like giving ATCC status to the TCR series. Supercars fans don't care, so CAMS/MA may as well hand it to the most authentic touring cars series in Australia.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

A bit premature there aren't you?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Mixer

You're talking about a series where the promoter still owns more than half the cars and are propping up the rest and if the wind blows in a different direction TCR would disappear just as quickly as GT-P did. It is eerily similar.

Considering the nature of your posts since I have been lurking, you wish it's eerily similar.

The promotor may own more than half the cars, but they're only putting their money where their mouth is. To attract meaningful tv coverage nowadays, as something more substantial than amateur racing, ARG have to prop up the initial running. Your posts on this topic make it out like this is a big deal when it isn't

Originally Posted by Mixer

Also a series that is being splintered from within by eTCR. VW & Audi won't be the last to go.

I like your doomsday narrative you use on this topic. Holden have left the series that commercially has revolved around them. But VW stopping tcr is now a big deal.

Originally Posted by Mixer

Other than Honda and Hyundai nobody else is really serious about it,

That's fine. But it's more than what supercars has got.

Manufacturer involvement in motorsport has always been fluid. TCR enables participants to use a wider number of cars even if they don't have manufacturer support.

TCR Australia, for whatever weakness your so keen to point out, is as much about smaller car racing reestablishing itself in Australia as it is about anything else. It had a great debut season. There was a lot of goodwill amongst many Australian motor racing fans.

Originally Posted by Mixer

the rest of the cars quite literally wouldn't make 1/4 race distance at Bathurst.

Considering the point of iconic races like Bathurst (Indy 500 & Le Mans) is to break cars, tcr is perfect! Down the track, it might instigate manufacturers to come up with cars to handle the challenge.

Originally Posted by Mixer

GRM's cars show flashes of speed but don't finish races anywhere.

The Lynk and Co will win WTCR again and I bet fold up their tent without being BoP'ed in any national series.

Tbf, nobody cares atm.

Originally Posted by Mixer

GRM, Wall Racing and HMO put on a show, but they are not prime time anything.

You're too busy interested in the superficial aspect of "the show". It's not important.

Either way, 3 serious teams is enough for a substantial series. It's pretty much every series in the world for decades. The rest can be plucky underdogs racing for their own purpose. As opposed to guys who are not good enough to be midfield in F1, and most not good enough to be in an F1 field, racing as "professionals".

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Matt K

There is no comparison. All these years of ATCC + more than 20 years of Supercars is the heritage of VASC while

There's no heritage in supercars. Supercars exits as a time warp embellishing one superficial aspect of Australian motor racing.

Originally Posted by Matt K

TCR Australia is just some poor national championship that is part of global regulations made for cheap racing, which

TCR is not cheap. it's less expensive than a lot of other classes, but it's not cheap.

It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the secnnd best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport.

It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars.

Originally Posted by Matt K

have their own 'top' championship - WTCR.

WTCR doesn't matter in Australia. All that matters in Australia is that there's an outlet for smaller cars in Australia. Which btw are now big cars cars. 2 litre cars in Australia are now big cars. Anything above 2 litre is antiquated.

Originally Posted by Matt K

Supercars are way more exciting and better racing cars than TCR and winning Supercars means that you really ARE Australian Touring Car Champion. Winning TCR Australia means winning just some national championship of minor importance.

Supercars "excitement" exaggerated. "better racing" is always with the lower powered cars.

Minor importance? I'll copy & post the above quote.

It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the second best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport.

It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars.

Originally Posted by Matt K

Should I go on?
Okay, I understand, Supercars is now in a difficult situation but it is just time for a change, not to pretend the championship is now dead and unimportant. TCR Australia could be on its support bill as a feeder series but as long as Supercars exists this will be the premier motorsport category in Australia.

Supercars is not a motor racing championship. It's an entertainment product that has hijacked Australian motorsport to make money out of. It's designed to attract lightweight fandom who don't have a genuine interest in motor racing.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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"sexy" and "noisy" are subjective and in your case, superficial terms. The "noise" of a 5 litre V8 is exaggerated. "Sexy"? It's just a wing, front splitter and flared guards. Whoopee-do!

Referring to Group A as "slow" just shows a lack of knowledge and perspective.

Looking up the 1984 & 85 Bathurst shootout results, the Group A cars were only on average a few seconds slower than the last of Group C. There's absolutely no way anyone would've notice the difference.

"Naked cars" are just cars. People who like motor racing are interested in them.

That being the case, you obviously approve of super touring as a premier class. As they were as fast as the last of Group C at the mountain, with the disadvantage of having to do the chase.

On another note. It's not big deal if Australia continued to use Group C and avoid Group A. The change was made to defer the responsibility of homologation away from CAMS to the FIA

[Mixer]

Whose sock puppet are you

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[2 litre Touring Car Star]

While you may be allowed to personally insult me. Where am I wrong?

[Mixer]

Well you tell me the terms are subjective and then that I am wrong.

Group A got faster and sexier but in 1985 it was neither. My point of view is irrelevant. I was asked if "anybody" didn't like it when Group A took over. People didn't.

The cars were more plain, less reliable, and there were lots of cars people didn't see on the roads. These are facts.

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[2 litre Touring Car Star]

"Sexy" is a subjective term.

Even within Group C. The Commodore was looked milder compared to the A9x Torana. Were people complaining about the Commodore?

Then as far as Ford is concerned, it's the reverse. The XC Falcon was a big ugly car compared to the XD and particularly XE.

Noisy? How much quieter could the Group A car could possibly have been?

The performance of the cars were inconsequential as no one would've been able to tell the difference. I don't know of any substantial evidence that Group A were less reliable, to the point where it detracted from following the ATCC and/or Bathurst.

The cars may have looked plain in comparison to Group C. Even then, Group A sped up the process of the road Group C would eventually have to go down. There would've been a point where the 3 litre class would have to be the main class, or chop down Class A from 6 to 4 litres. But then eventually it would go to 3 then 2 litres.

There were cars that people didn't see on the roads. But TCR doesn't have this problem.

Supercars is an odd case where the competing cars were the most relevant on Australian roads, to becoming the most irrelevant. The Commodore and Falcon have also been irrelevant for some time, it's not a new realisation.

In the case of TCR. Even if some of the competing cars are not popular, or popular cars are not participating like the Corolla, the fact they're 2 litre cars makes them relevant. Supercars doesn't even have a relevant set of regs.

Therefore the original question is not premature.

[Mixer]

It is premature, if ARG ceased to function today, TCR in Australia is dead. TCR here right is a balloon ARG has pumped up.

If Supercars the organisation disappeared, the teams still exist and can put on a show.

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[Sandgroper]

Sorry this thread is pointless !

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Sorry this thread is pointless !

Was trolling from the start

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[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Well you tell me the terms are subjective and then that I am wrong.

Group A got faster and sexier but in 1985 it was neither. My point of view is irrelevant. I was asked if "anybody" didn't like it when Group A took over. People didn't.

The cars were more plain, less reliable, and there were lots of cars people didn't see on the roads. These are facts.

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Please explain this “less reliable” part

Group A proved infinitely far more reliable than Group C right from the off in 1985

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

Please explain this “less reliable” part

Group A proved infinitely far more reliable than Group C right from the off in 1985

63 car started the '84 James Hardie 1000. 29 were classified as finishers.

49 cars started the '85 James Hardie 1000. 23 were classified as finishers.

You do the math, but marginally but be a better description than infinitely

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

It is premature, if ARG ceased to function today, TCR in Australia is dead. TCR here right is a balloon ARG has pumped up.

If Supercars the organisation disappeared, the teams still exist and can put on a show.

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What balloon has been pumped up? An initial investment? They've barely injected any air into this "balloon".

Supercars organisations disappeared, what "show" is supercars going to put on?

If both Supercars and ARG disappeared. All that would happen is MA takes responsibility of both categories, then what do you think is going to happen?

With TCR (Representing 2 litre racing), MA won't be abandoning it. They saw last year "Hang on, people like these cars and want to see them racing. It might not be as well known as supercars. But there's something in this that's worthwhile to keep going anyway."

They saw last year that TCR solves a lot of problems. Commercial potential/value, flexibility with scheduling, something a wider amount of competitors can aspire to. A class that people like, and have goodwill towards.

Last year, TCR managed to do something extraordinary in the history of Australian motorsport. They managed to get people (As in, a substantial amount of people), to come to a Shannons Nationals round!

Do you know how hard that is? It's really, really hard. A stand alone Super2-3 couldn't do it. GT racing with the big name supercars drivers don't attract anyone to SN rounds. Yet people turned up to SN TCR rounds? (It might not have been the 4 billion people that turn up to supercars rounds, but people turned up off their own accord.)

More people would've turned up to last year's SN rounds than for the previous 14 years combined. MA/ARG would've been happy if their attendance last year happened in a few years from now. They're going "Who are these people, and where have they come from??? These people did not show up in our focus group studies?"

With supercars, all you can do it cut costs. You cut expenses to the point where the pre-Cochrane ATCC actually looks pretty good (An ATCC that supercars names don't hide in taking a **** on). The only thing you can do with Supercars is turn it into the best field ever in Super 3 history.

NZ? CHOP!. Townsville? CHOP! Newcastle? CHOP! Darwin? Stay of execution, but the axe is ready? Gold Coast? CHOP! Adelaide? CHOP! (Should become an Indycar round now anyway)

Expensive, antiquated and outdated regs. No flexibility. A series that exists to maintain a clique. Little goodwill. I wonder what magical car Gen 3 is going to be?

[Mixer]

What you say about the regs, fine.

But ARG owns most or all of the cars in this country and is still paying the bills.

Come make this suggestion when there are actual standalone teams and not just the second year in a row of contracted exhibition races as a fishing expedition.

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[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

What you say about the regs, fine.

But ARG owns most or all of the cars in this country and is still paying the bills.

Come make this suggestion when there are actual standalone teams and not just the second year in a row of contracted exhibition races as a fishing expedition.

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Sign me up! If the promoters are paying the bills to race I want in, what a fantastic idea for the guys struggling to go racing. Where do I find out how much they are paying because if what you are saying is true why wouldn't drivers be lining up to race.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Sign me up! If the promoters are paying the bills to race I want in, what a fantastic idea for the guys struggling to go racing. Where do I find out how much they are paying because if what you are saying is true why wouldn't drivers be lining up to race.

It is absolutely true and the truth about the Kelly and Bright entries has already basically completely come out after the subterfuge that the teams themselves actually purchased and owned these cars ended. GRM are heavily involved with ARG, and they and Wall, MPC, and HMO all want to put on a show because they want to sell cars and spare parts.

I would suggest when the money stops MPC's Audi will go back home. Not sure they will sell any cars now that VAG is out and there will be no further development.

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[one five five]

Originally Posted by chavez

63 car started the '84 James Hardie 1000. 29 were classified as finishers.

49 cars started the '85 James Hardie 1000. 23 were classified as finishers.

You do the math, but marginally but be a better description than infinitely

How many of the classified finishers in 1984 were Group A cars though?