Can Alexander Albon survive at Red Bull?

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by gert

Because maybe they know of some thing that happened of which we do not have a single clue?
Some inside info that has not come out (yet)?

Apparently Albon tested inconclusive for Covid, they approached Hulkenberg, and then after the second test was negative decided Hulkenberg was not needed.

Maybe Albon wasn't feeling too well just like Stroll - or just not 100% - but decided to race anyhow.


There's always so many things we (as public) don't know.

If that was the case they should just say it, no reason to hide it

also very strange Alex was retired with no radio message at all about any technical problems before that and Alex asking "why?" when he was asked to retire

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by gert

There's always so many things we (as public) don't know.

Spot on Gert - the team have way more info than we will ever have and if they consider Albon's performance to be "satisfactory" then the team is doing so from a position of superior knowledge.

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

If that was the case they should just say it, no reason to hide it

also very strange Alex was retired with no radio message at all about any technical problems before that and Alex asking "why?" when he was asked to retire

F1 teams hide plenty of stuff - it is after all a highly-competitive environment and you don't give anything away, to anyone.

Wouldn't surprise me that the lack of radio call MAY have been about not embarrassing Honda, whilst RB are likely in some delicate discussions with them - but could have been for many other reasons too.

Mind you, COULD also be a big Marko smokescreen too and maybe someone else will be in the seat next race!

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by Tourer

F1 teams hide plenty of stuff - it is after all a highly-competitive environment and you don't give anything away, to anyone.

no reason to hide it when a driver is not feeling well, after the race Albon had they had enough reasons to tell that as the reason Albons race was that bad, but they didn't

[chillibowl]

I thought they said he had a punctured radiator?

[gert]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I thought they said he had a punctured radiator?

You're right.
I find out here:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...bon-retirement

Mystery solved.
No things hidden.
We can all take a deep breath and move on ...

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Decision after Turkish GP according to Marko but they're comfortable with Albon so far and considered his Eifel performance "satisfactory".

It's all over.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by gert

You're right.
I find out here:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...bon-retirement

Mystery solved.
No things hidden.
We can all take a deep breath and move on ...

That's what they said, but there was no sign of that at all, not on the radio, not in what Albon could notice about the engine(with him asking "why?" when he was asked to retire the car)

wouldn't they ask Albon to change engine modes and come in slow when there was really something wrong?

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

That's what they said, but there was no sign of that at all, not on the radio, not in what Albon could notice about the engine(with him asking "why?" when he was asked to retire the car)

wouldn't they ask Albon to change engine modes and come in slow when there was really something wrong?

I am not sure how you can repair a PUNCTUATED radiator by changing engine mode.
If that's what they saw in telemetry or other data, probably the best thing is to retire the car and save the engine ?


Of course, you do not have to believe that if you don't want to.

[S griffin]

So it seems Red Bull have now realised that only using drivers from their scheme hasn't necessarily worked if they are publicly showing interest in Hulk. No offence to Albon, but I would so love to see Hulk in the RBR. His two drives this year show that he hasn't lost anything and I'm sure that first podium will be almost a certainty, providing the car is as good next year as it is this year

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Albon can be good one weekend

Yet to see it, honestly. He relied on Stroll's crash and the subsequent restart to claim a podium the car deserved at Mugello, and aside from that and the opener (again, in which his chance came from a brilliant strategy call and SC as opposed to raw pace as per almost every Verstappen performance) he has been a total non-factor in a car his teammate has not failed to score a podium in all season.

I keep repeating that point about Verstappen, but it seems nobody else picks it up. Verstappen is the only driver 11 races in to score a podium with every race finish. That is WDC form. With a capable wingman, that form could really threaten Mercedes for both titles. Albon continuing to fight AlphaTauri and Alfa Romeo cars can only be considered 'satisfactory' if RBR believe that refusing to admit that sacking a Grand Prix winner in favour of frankly one of the weakest drivers on the grid with few signs of improvement is satisfactory.

I came into this season hoping Albon could step up and never like to see blood for blood's sake, but I wholly believe RBR sacking him is absolutely imperative. The team is never going reach its ambition by accepting such mediocrity.

I also find Dr Marko's comments about Hulkenberg being on a par with Albon in qualifying amusing. He surely must have forgotten about who outqualified Verstappen in that one race RBR have won

[gert]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Verstappen is the only driver 11 races in to score a podium with every race finish. That is WDC form. With a capable wingman, that form could really threaten Mercedes for both titles.

It would certainly enhance their Constructor Points, but even if Albon had finished right behind Verstappen every single race, that would not have helped Verstappen.
He would not have magically passed Hamilton just because Albon (or whoever) was now faster.
The car is good but just not good enough to beat Mercedes on a consistent basis.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by gert

It would certainly enhance their Constructor Points, but even if Albon had finished right behind Verstappen every single race, that would not have helped Verstappen.
He would not have magically passed Hamilton just because Albon (or whoever) was now faster.
The car is good but just not good enough to beat Mercedes on a consistent basis.

Maaayyybe if he was following right behind verstappen and was able to use undercut/overcut or different strategies would have put Mercedes in a position where they had to cover albon with bottas, which would have affected Lewis' race negatively. Like not getting data on the hard tires, or on stretching a set of tires, or lewis and bottas having to push more trying to cover both, learing to more failure or mistakes or who knows....

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by gert

It would certainly enhance their Constructor Points, but even if Albon had finished right behind Verstappen every single race, that would not have helped Verstappen.
He would not have magically passed Hamilton just because Albon (or whoever) was now faster.
The car is good but just not good enough to beat Mercedes on a consistent basis.

Two things:


1 It's about next year, not this year. If next year the gap is about 0.2s smaller to Mercedes it would probably be close enough. Heck, without mechanicals, Verstappen would be only about 20 points behind Hamilton even this year.


2 If the cars are close enough your teammates position does certainly matter, because it has a strong influence on the options you and the opposing team have on the strategy front.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Maaayyybe if he was following right behind verstappen and was able to use undercut/overcut or different strategies would have put Mercedes in a position where they had to cover albon with bottas, which would have affected Lewis' race negatively. Like not getting data on the hard tires, or on stretching a set of tires, or lewis and bottas having to push more trying to cover both, learing to more failure or mistakes or who knows....

This is precisely the point that Gert missed. Having a second car even prevent Mercedes from pitting into clear air, yet alone harassing Bottas and Hamilton via pit strategy, would be enough to destabilise their races far more than is possible with just one car fighting for wins and the other fighting 50s back for 8th. We've seen Verstappen outrace Hamilton before and if Mercedes are forced into a playing a disadvantageous strategy to keep track position over the second RBR car, then of all drivers Verstappen would be able to capitalise. Just imagine, for example, how 'dominant' Mercedes would look if RBR magically had Verstappen and Leclerc. I would go as far as to say Bottas would be sitting happily in 4th place in the standings.

[chunterer]

If RB had those 2 in the team, Bottas almost certainly would not be 4th in the points!!

Max and Charles would be incredibly difficult for the team to control.

It suits the team to have a slower no.2, they couldn't cope with the aggro if someone regularly matched him.

It's also worth considering how Mercs strategies would alter if they faced a real threat.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It's also worth considering how Mercs strategies would alter if they faced a real threat.

Leaving the Verstappen-Leclerc hypotheticals to one side, this point is fair, but generally Mercedes with only one rival have been conservative with their strategy calls, and RBR have had to try and react accordingly to attack them. A shifting dynamic just means that to try and unsettle one team, the other must somewhat split strategies and leave at least one car vulnerable in doing so. It might work, it might not, and if RBR had two cars in the equation they have nothing to lose they do not already, whereas Mercedes do.

This is why I believe that so long as there is any driver out there capable of hanging on within around 20s of the Mercedes during the first stint of the race in that second Red Bull, it is imperative that RBR axe Albon for the 2021 season at the latest. I would be surprised if neither Hulkenberg or Perez are capable of this, and think there is far more reason to back Gasly than Albon with this. After all, Albon has not had a race without various restarts in which he has been hassling the frontrunning teams throughout, whilst Gasly at least had his British Grand Prix drive, and Albon has had over twice the time Gasly had.

[steve_r]

Perez has shown on many occasions over the years that he can make alternative tyre strategies work. And he is a solid racer who does not make many mistakes. Even if his raw pace does not match Verstappen, I could quite easily see him giving Mercedes something extra to think about. Even if that is all he offered, then it would be an improvement on all of the 2nds Drivers that RBR have employed ever since Ricciardo left.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Perez has shown on many occasions over the years that he can make alternative tyre strategies work. And he is a solid racer who does not make many mistakes. Even if his raw pace does not match Verstappen, I could quite easily see him giving Mercedes something extra to think about. Even if that is all he offered, then it would be an improvement on all of the 2nds Drivers that RBR have employed ever since Ricciardo left.

Totally agree.

[chillibowl]

in fairness though, running long on the hards is something he would only ever do in a RB if he completely messed up in quali/found himself at the back of the grid.

his main skill would lack value on a top team no?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It's also worth considering how Mercs strategies would alter if they faced a real threat.

this for me.

Merc would simply respond by using their number 2 as a way to force the RB to cover leaving Ham to turn up the wick and blow the competition away.

for sure Merc have been caught out by RB on occasion, specific tracks and clever strategy and of course Max delivering on those clever strategies. i would also add overly conservative and/or late pit stop calls by Merc.

but this has never been the norm and certainly not even close to cover 20races a season imo. im not sure we have really seen the Merc's properly unleashed yet and i think RB know this.

personally, i think it more likely a better 2nd driver in RB just takes points off of Max.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

personally, i think it more likely a better 2nd driver in RB just takes points off of Max.

So what, then, is the optimum distance from Verstappen for Red Bull's second driver?

Again, one worry with Perez is his willingness to play the team game - see his frequent spats with Ocon. Would Verstappen always be sufficiently far off in the distance? Hulkenberg is likely to play ball more regularly and money isn't as big a factor for RBR as for most other teams, but realistically either look like far preferable options when compared to Albon.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

So what, then, is the optimum distance from Verstappen for Red Bull's second driver?

well obviously i think its the current distance between Max and Albon...so measured in miles lol!

[gert]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

This is precisely the point that Gert missed. Having a second car even prevent Mercedes from pitting into clear air, yet alone harassing Bottas and Hamilton via pit strategy, would be enough to destabilise their races far more than is possible with just one car fighting for wins and the other fighting 50s back for 8th. We've seen Verstappen outrace Hamilton before and if Mercedes are forced into a playing a disadvantageous strategy to keep track position over the second RBR car, then of all drivers Verstappen would be able to capitalise.

I don't think I missed a point.

If the second Red Bull driver is a threat by putting him on a different strategy to Hamilton/Verstappen, Mercedes will react by countering that with Bottas.

Sometimes that will work, sometimes it won't, but it wouldn't change anything in the Hamilton-Verstappen dynamic.
Hamilton will just mimic Verstappen's strategy and still get out on top (most of the times)

As long as the Mercedes car/engine is better than the Red Bull/Honda combination, Mercedes will come out on top more often than not.
Hamilton vs. Verstappen and Bottas vs. Red Bull #2.


I see little gains for Verstappen vs. Hamilton.
Maybe if they consitently play the alternative strategy for Red Bull #2 I can see Verstappen finish 2nd to Hamilton instead of Bottas, but there will also be cases where the alternatieve strategy works better and Verstappen will be 4th after Bottas -RedBull #2 and Hamiltin.

I don't see a net gain for Verstappen.
I see one for Red Bull in the constructors championship.

And potential unrest within Red Bull if driver #2 happens to get what later turns out to be the better strategy.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

So what, then, is the optimum distance from Verstappen for Red Bull's second driver?

The distance between Hamilton and Bottas?
But - like other posted before me - that will mean driver #2 takes away points from Verstappen, just like Bottas does to Hamilton from time to time.

If you want to avoid that at all cost, you need a bigger gap between Verstappen and #2 or team orders.

[S griffin]

It’s often been said Bottas makes us realise how good Rosberg was. In the same way, Albon is maybe showing us that Bottas is doing quite a good job next to Hamilton