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Old 27 Jun 2005, 11:42 (Ref:1340982)   #1
garybirch
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garybirch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Blue Flagging Hints

I have been a course marshal since 99 and occassionally got asked to wave the sticks. This year I thought I'd make it official and upgrade.
I've been told twice now that I need to concentrate more on the blue.

The main area I struggle with is during qualifying. You've got cars doing so many different speeds it can be hard to tell who's on a quick lap, and who's not! Especially after a startline straight when a quick car suddenly slows down and you've already flagged the one he was about to overtake!

I also struggle trying to keep track of who's overtaken who in long races, such as the hour GT at Combe this weekend which also had the added problem of pit stops!

I'm a genious at yellow, red and all other colours...and can even wave one while holding another and a safety car board!

Anyone got any advice that could help me inprove my blue though?
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 11:57 (Ref:1341003)   #2
Stone-kicker
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Stone-kicker should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Concentration and practice!
There are no short-cuts.
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 12:02 (Ref:1341013)   #3
Grandslammer
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Grandslammer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Blue flag is usually the hardest one to master,but will come with experience.The main rule is 'if in doubt,don't put it out.'Single car categories,like Minis or Formula Ford,rarely need blueing during qualifying,due to the similar speed capabilities.Trying to "read" long distance races,are not easy,but again that will come in time Do not worry about making mistakes,it's part of the learning process.
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 12:03 (Ref:1341014)   #4
graeme
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graeme should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
From a driver's prespective, if in doubt, wave it. We'll maybe think "yeah, I know" inside our helmets but better too much information than too little. The "trouble" is that too many drivers just watch GPs rather than read the Blue Book and think the blue flag means you have to let the car past - but if they back off unnecessarily, I'm happy to take the place off them

Ha, ha - crossing posting with conflicting advise!
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 12:09 (Ref:1341022)   #5
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Grandslammer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Over use any flag and Drivers will start ignoring them...
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 20:02 (Ref:1341393)   #6
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garybirch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Don't they ignore most of them anyway!
When someone sets a pole position lap while a yellow is out, something is wrong!
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 20:09 (Ref:1341401)   #7
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Choose your blue flag posts carefully. Not every post is a good blue flag post - particularly if it's coming into a corner. Other than that, practice.

I agree you shouldn't overuse blues - but they are only an advisory flag - you'll never get good at it if you're so afraid to put out a wrong one that you never put one out at all (I don't necessarily apply that to a race situation, but certainly in qualifying). The drivers will forgive you the odd wrong one as long as you seem to be getting better
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 20:10 (Ref:1341403)   #8
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Grandslammer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Alas...Yes ,there were a couple of near misses in the Ginetta race on Sunday,while behind the Safety car.
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 20:28 (Ref:1341422)   #9
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KayBee should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Do you have a 'home' circuit where you could talk to the flag trainers about blue flagging?

Most circuits have posts which are considered to be 'training posts' for blue flagging, perhaps you could asked to be paired with an experienced flag marshal for a couple of meetings at any of these posts and you could then pick their brains and put what you learn into action.

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Old 27 Jun 2005, 20:51 (Ref:1341446)   #10
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Clive should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridClive should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sound advice KB, and everyone else too. Practice and then practice and dont worry if you get it wrong. we all do at times. If I had a pound for every wrong blue, I'd be a wealthy man. shame no-one took me up on that?
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 21:18 (Ref:1341483)   #11
Terry Scannell
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Terry Scannell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In longer races or during qualifying try to identify the fastest five cars and the slowest five cars by their numbers or colour schemes and try to keep track of the distance in the early stages of the race between the slowest car and the leader so that you can judge when the leading group will start lapping. Once the leader has lapped the last three cars start working forwards remembering the next bunch of cars that the leading group will come across.

It also helps if you can man a post where perhaps you can see across a section of track perhaps some two posts away where the cars may be visible at right angles to you so it is easier to gauge the closing speeds of the faster cars to those that they are going to be lapping, i.e at Snetterton good blue flagging posts are Bombhole In - with a good view of the cars coming through the Esses, Suicide Alley (Pitlane/Senna) -with vision of the cars going between Bombhole Out through Coram and into Russell,
Sear - with vision of the cars going into Riches before turning towards Sear.

Many other circuits have posts with similar opportunities to gain good vision of closing speeds, which will help you. It is perhaps easier to gain experience and confidence on Blue on these types of post rather than a straight where it is sometimes more difficult to judge distance and speed with the cars approaching you head-on.

Above all don't worry, the drivers will appreciate that you only have perhaps a split second to make a decision whether to wave a blue, use a stationary or not to blue, it will become natural with a bit of practice and encouragement from your crew, however the feeling of satisfaction when the drivers acknowledge you at the end of the race when you get it right is reward enough.
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 21:52 (Ref:1341505)   #12
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Clive should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridClive should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Also have a look at this excellent site

www.flag-marshal.org.uk
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 21:54 (Ref:1341509)   #13
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Gary,
You can't teach a lot about blue flagging because most of it is "there-and-then" decisions to be made. For me the important things to remember are (a) is the car in front slow enough to get in the way? (slow being relative) and (b) do they know that the faster car is coming? Finally (c) does the faster car want to go past, and if so where will he try?

In case (a) you can't judge this if you can only see from the exit of a corner to your post so forget trying to blue flag (being almost head on at flat straights also are a problem because you can't get a perspective of speed). You can only use blue if you can watch the cars coming, and see that fast car will catch and want to pass.

For (b) get into the habit of looking at the driver rather than the car. Is he waving the car past? Has he tilted his head to look in the mirrors? Has he got his hand up to signify a problem (so have you got a white flag close to hand?). Then think about where the car is. Has the driver pulled out of the way, is he signalling, does his line look any different from the way he's been driving previously? If none of these seem to apply, get the blue out. Keep in mind though, if he's seen one has he seen his mate who's drafting along behind him???

And for (c) look out in practice (usually 20min+ practices) if you are towards the end of a lap, just because the guy has been 5 seconds a lap faster previously, is he on a flyer or has he cooled off to pit? As for where he will pass, the easiest place for the faster car is under braking for the corner, but the safest place for the slower cars is to wave them by on a straight. In situation like that the best thing is a stationary blue on the straight, followed by a waved on the post approaching to the corner.

Other than that it's experience. 10 or 15 minute practice sessions are usually too busy to worry too much about blues because everyone doesn't have time to mess about warming tyres or going in & out of pits, it's just get on it and get qualified.

If someone is slow, and knows they're slow, they will keep out of the way or wave guys past, so after the first time they're caught don't worry about them too much.

And read the race. In a long race make a note on a scrap of paper clipped to the post who the leading 3 or 4 cars are, and who are the back markers. During the first few laps of a long race while you're not doing anything with the blue (hopefully) scribble down a race order, they don't shuffle that much (except for the ones who messed up qualifying and are coming through the field). In pit stop races such as GTs make sure you have a radio on for the circuit commentary (if available, 1602MW for British GT events) so you get regular updates if you are losing the plot.

To combine threads slightly,
Best blue flag post: Most of the infield posts 12-16 @ Rockingham (you can watch the cars round the oval, see them through the hairpin onto the infield, loose them in the dip but then have time to see them coming towards you and react).
Worst blue flag post: Post 23 Donington (should be easy, braking point at the end of a straight, but the point that the drivers can see you is at Dunlop Bridge (P21) and unless there's a visible speed differential or you recognise the cars/drivers involved, by the time you realise they're going to want to pass under braking they're passing you so you're too late).
Busiest blue flag post: Post 2 Donington (not for the cars on track normally, as it's a level straight and you can't pick up the relative speeds, but the pit exit cars pull out almost onto the racing line, so for practices and pit stop races the blue flag is usually accompanied by a point towards pitlane to say 'it's for you')

Hope this helps.
Al.,
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Old 27 Jun 2005, 21:59 (Ref:1341517)   #14
Alan Green
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Alan Green should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
*whisper*
FIA Blue flag radio system

*scurries away and hides*
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Old 28 Jun 2005, 07:39 (Ref:1341739)   #15
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PipSqueak111 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I spent much of the weekend at Brands blue flagging the EERC/Belcar meet. Post 12 was a b***er to flag as they came over the rise at 11 up to the GP circuit and there was barely enough time to register which cars they were and put a flag out in time for them to see it. The really tough ones were the Britsports where they all look very similar (and half were black it seemed - paint it pink, you'll get better blue flagging! ), and the Porsches in the Britcar and Belcar were hard to tell apart very quickly.

Really quite enjoyed the flagging, and by Sunday afternoon was starting to get bored without a flag in my hand! It's got me thinking about upgrading to Flaggie. Do I have to wait until the end of the season to get an upgrade card, or can I get one now? I take it I just contact the chief marshal of my primary club to get an upgrade card?

Phill
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Old 28 Jun 2005, 08:00 (Ref:1341749)   #16
Andrew Palmer
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Andrew Palmer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Gary, my advice is pick one club to pracitice blue flagging with, like MGCC, 750MC or AMOC. Then learn the championships like which drivers are the front runners and those at the back. Then just pracitice.

Also when you are not blue flagging and doing any other job read the race. Who's where and does the flag Marshal show the blue when you would in theory or vice a versa.
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Old 28 Jun 2005, 08:44 (Ref:1341773)   #17
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garybirch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks for everyone's advice.
Phil, I just contacted my chief and he sent me one. I don't think you have to wait to the end of the season - ask him.
Gary
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Old 28 Jun 2005, 12:54 (Ref:1341965)   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Green
Gary,
...get into the habit of looking at the driver rather than the car.
...is absolutely the best advice of all. It's amazing just what you can pick up, even in saloons. On occasions you'll see a wave of thanks on the next lap.

And remember, you have a spare hand too, which can be used for pointing at the car you want to move out of the way. Picked this up from a couple of French flaggies a few years ago and it works remarkably well when there's a mixed pack of front/back markers.

And just accept that you will make mistakes. A day where you didn't get a couple hideously wrong is the day you were on incident.
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Old 28 Jun 2005, 13:16 (Ref:1341980)   #19
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blackhands should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I was on post 22 both days. I must admit I didn't find it easy to blue due to unfamiliarity with the cars, the cars being in view a short time and flaggies at the previous post obviously having the same problems as me. What made things difficult were driver changes, where they sometimes seemed to be of vastly different standards so that a previously fast car suddenly slowed, and vice versa. On top of this, safety cars suddenly changed the pattern of the race and with a 2hour race that's quite atime to be concentrating. It does help though if you can see the lap board and previous parts of the track though.

You do find that you get into a groove though and things become easier with time . I suppose its also getting used to looking at a race in a different way and always from the same direction. Don't forget its easy with hindsight to know that you've missed a blue flag situation but more difficult to get it right in the split second you have - so don't worry if you think that you are having problems.
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Old 1 Jul 2005, 21:16 (Ref:1345015)   #20
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QuickBrownFox should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by PipSqueak111
I spent much of the weekend at Brands blue flagging the EERC/Belcar meet. Post 12 was a b***er to flag as they came over the rise at 11 up to the GP circuit and there was barely enough time to register which cars they were and put a flag out in time for them to see it.
At 11, the blue flag was left well alone on Sunday - by the time it would have been shown, the driver's eyes would have been down the road on posts 12 and 13.
If you haven't already done post 8, ask to flag it next meeting - you can see the score board accross at 7 which will assist you keeping track of top six cars.
Occasionally, I have seen drivers acknowledge good blue flagging during sessions, and more often than not at the end of EERC meetings, thanks are passed on to all marshals for quality of blue flagging.
Tim.
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Old 2 Jul 2005, 07:11 (Ref:1345224)   #21
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Shelagh should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridShelagh should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridShelagh should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Best advice I ever had was that the blue flag was telling the driver to "look in his mirrors" - and it still holds true after more years than I care to recall. Essentially, if you think the guy in front should be aware of the car behind him, then show him the blue. It is then up to him (or the car behind) to decide what to do.

In long races (especially with pit stops) I blue "as a race" until I lose track of who is where and then it is a mixture of knowing who is up at the front and blueing for them and treating the rest as if it is a practice session. The problem with two driver races is that one is usually very good and the other isn't - so that fast/slow car pre-stop is now the opposite!
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Old 3 Jul 2005, 02:25 (Ref:1345676)   #22
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blueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridblueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
When I first trained 20 odd years ago, my captain (observer to you) made me memorize the numbers and colors of the cars as they went by. That wasn't too hard as I began my racing career in Timing. By the time I got the blue flag in my hand, I could recognize the cars coming at me and started to learn speed differentials by noticing the order in which the cars came around and noting the space between them. All these years later, when I go to flag a series I haven't been following, I fall back on the same visual cues.

As for blue flagging qualifying, I think it is the most difficult session to flag - and therefore the most fun. But to do it well, it takes practice and more practice so you can spot who's on a hot lap and who's just on a sighting lap.

Good luck. All these years later, I still love it.
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Old 3 Jul 2005, 10:38 (Ref:1345863)   #23
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The Fat Clerk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridThe Fat Clerk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think you have to judge what sort of race it is though. If it's a one make one, only blue if 'lapping' takes place. I remember as a driver in the early 80's (19 not 18's) coming down the Brabham straight @ Brands as the race leader in a F.Ford 2000 race & being shown the waved blue!
Luckily for the person waving the flag at post 1, I was taken out @ Druids a couple of laps later because if I'd of finished, I'd of been over the pitWall (no fences in those days) and inserted that blue flag.
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Old 3 Jul 2005, 13:54 (Ref:1345978)   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk
Luckily for the person waving the flag at post 1, I was taken out @ Druids a couple of laps later because if I'd of finished, I'd of been over the pitWall (no fences in those days) and inserted that blue flag.
Another pupil from the "James Hunt",school of 'Deportment'??
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Old 3 Jul 2005, 16:14 (Ref:1346081)   #25
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garybirch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk
Luckily for the person waving the flag at post 1, I was taken out @ Druids a couple of laps later because if I'd of finished, I'd of been over the pitWall (no fences in those days) and inserted that blue flag.
Excuse me for saying so but it's comments like that which put off those of us that are learning, trying to do our best. Remember the marshalls don't normally get paid, in fact have to sometimes shell out a lot of dosh for equipment and travel, and do our best for the love of the sport.

If he'd have cause you going off at druids, fair play to you, but perhaps he made a mistake? Which of course drivers never do!!
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