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Old 19 Jan 2012, 11:01 (Ref:3014047)   #1
NCharman
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Which is faster - superkart or 1967 F1?

After playing GP legends, my son asked me whether a superkart is faster than a 1967 F1 car, so I thought I'd look at lap records for some circuits, but it's hard to find circuits that are unchanged for that long. In the UK there's Thruxton - but that is a very open and flat-out circuit - would certainly favour the F1 car, Cadwell park - can't see any results for a Formula 1 race in the late 60's. Nearest I can find is Oulton park 1967 Gold cup fastest lap was 1:30.6, 2011 Outlon park with chicanes - superkart fastest lap was around 1:38. So three questions for you experts out there:
1)Were the Oulton Park chicanes worth 8 seconds a lap?
2)Can anyone think of other circuits which have had F1 cars in 1967/68 and superkarts in 2010/11?

3)Which was quicker?
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 12:42 (Ref:3014101)   #2
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Formula ford V 67 Formula 1 V Superkart

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Originally Posted by NCharman View Post
After playing GP legends, my son asked me whether a superkart is faster than a 1967 F1 car, so I thought I'd look at lap records for some circuits, but it's hard to find circuits that are unchanged for that long. In the UK there's Thruxton - but that is a very open and flat-out circuit - would certainly favour the F1 car, Cadwell park - can't see any results for a Formula 1 race in the late 60's. Nearest I can find is Oulton park 1967 Gold cup fastest lap was 1:30.6, 2011 Outlon park with chicanes - superkart fastest lap was around 1:38. So three questions for you experts out there:
1)Were the Oulton Park chicanes worth 8 seconds a lap?
2)Can anyone think of other circuits which have had F1 cars in 1967/68 and superkarts in 2010/11?

3)Which was quicker?
A modern Formula ford is quicker that a 67 F1 but i know which i would rather drive . Superkarts are amazingly fast but you have to be mental to race one full respect for them though .
Re oulton have a look at Gold Cup times from the last couple of years and see what times late 70s F1s are doing and that should give you some idea. Dont forget they changed the chicane profile again a couple of years ago .
I think there was a Surtees at the gold cup and the karts were there last year as well.
The chicanes add more than 8 seconds but have saved many lives. as someone who has driven both nothing more challenging than an open knickbrook but .
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 13:22 (Ref:3014114)   #3
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Back in the early 1980s, I believe somebody lapped the Monaco Grand Prix track in a super kart as quickly as a contemporary F1 car then. I stress the 'I believe', because I've not had the story verified.

A modern superkart would be able to lap Oulton Park quicker than a 1967 F1 car.
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 15:14 (Ref:3014150)   #4
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Back in the early 1980s, I believe somebody lapped the Monaco Grand Prix track in a super kart as quickly as a contemporary F1 car then. I stress the 'I believe', because I've not had the story verified.

A modern superkart would be able to lap Oulton Park quicker than a 1967 F1 car.
I've heard something similar. Didier Pironi was apparently convinced he could put a Super Kart on pole for the Monaco Grand Prix.
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 18:46 (Ref:3014240)   #5
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I thought it was Patrick Depailler who thought he could put a kart on pole?
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 20:16 (Ref:3014273)   #6
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I thought it was Patrick Depailler who thought he could put a kart on pole?
Depailler rings a bell. He was mad enough to do it.
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Old 19 Jan 2012, 21:49 (Ref:3014314)   #7
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From personal experience, I would say definitely yes.
Racing 250 Superkarts on Australian circuits where in most cases we lapped faster than all local open wheel classes (F3 , FF etc) At Phillip Island the lap record is under the MotoGP record! Same for Eastern Creek.

They are the best fun you can have with your pants on (especially on the Adelaide GP circuit!) but I'm glad I was able to walk away from it 'unscathed'. I saw some truly awful crashes during my 10 years. So probably as dangerous as a '67 F1 car as well!!!


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Old 20 Jan 2012, 18:33 (Ref:3014685)   #8
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A modern Formula ford is quicker that a 67 F1 but i know which i would rather drive .
They are definitely quicker than a pre-66 F1 car from the lap times the GP cars do at the historic Gold Cup, but i'm not so sure about overhauling something with 3 litre power and at least 200-250bhp more, even accounting for modern FF tyres that are grippier than '67 F1 tyres. It would be fun to find out though! Maybe the '67 cars would be faster on the pre-chicane Oulton where they could stretch their legs a bit from Shell Oils (Or Esso) bend down to Knickerbrook, and modern FF would outbrake and outcorner the '67 cars at the modern version of Oulton.

Superkarts are nearly faster than anything at the right circuit! A mate used to spanner for a 250E team, at the old Hockenheim they were timed at 188mph just before the Jim Clark chicane once...

Last edited by JBT; 20 Jan 2012 at 18:40.
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Old 20 Jan 2012, 20:47 (Ref:3014738)   #9
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Superkarts are nearly faster than anything at the right circuit! A mate used to spanner for a 250E team, at the old Hockenheim they were timed at 188mph just before the Jim Clark chicane once...
... not to mention the acceleration. I have to admit, that kind of speed on that circuit in a Superkart would scare the crap out of me... and that's coming from someone who's driven a Superkart on more than a few occasions.
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Old 20 Jan 2012, 21:03 (Ref:3014742)   #10
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i seem to remember that one of Eddie Irvine's claims to fame, as that he had lapped Silverstone faster in a FF than Jim Clark in a 1.5lt Lotus. Now that is probably true and a reflection on race car developement over the years. The Lotus having almost exactly twice the power of the FF.

I also seem to remember Martin Hines returning some amazing times in a Kart around Silverstone. As fast, if not faster than the bulk of a 3lt F1 grid.
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 09:27 (Ref:3014887)   #11
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I'm not sure about Hines going that quickly around a track like Silverstone. Averaged out among all tracks, Superkarts were generally on a par with F3 cars or F-Renault. On some tracks the karts would be quicker, on others the cars. As an illustration from Hines' heyday, here are some times from 1988 on the same configuration of the Silverstone GP circuit and in dry conditions.

o 07.08.1988 - Formula E fastest lap at the Silverstone Kart Grand Prix - Poul Petersen PVP/Rotax 1m34.07 - 113.62mph.

o 05.06.1988 - Formula 3 fastest lap at round 9 of British F3 championship - JJ Lehto Reynard 883 / TOMS Toyota - 1m29.98 - 118.75mph.
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 13:15 (Ref:3014985)   #12
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I'm not sure about Hines going that quickly around a track like Silverstone. Averaged out among all tracks, Superkarts were generally on a par with F3 cars or F-Renault. On some tracks the karts would be quicker, on others the cars. As an illustration from Hines' heyday, here are some times from 1988 on the same configuration of the Silverstone GP circuit and in dry conditions.

o 07.08.1988 - Formula E fastest lap at the Silverstone Kart Grand Prix - Poul Petersen PVP/Rotax 1m34.07 - 113.62mph.

o 05.06.1988 - Formula 3 fastest lap at round 9 of British F3 championship - JJ Lehto Reynard 883 / TOMS Toyota - 1m29.98 - 118.75mph.
I was thinking more early70s
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 13:36 (Ref:3014994)   #13
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I was thinking more early70s
Ah OK, yes you could possibly be right.
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 14:24 (Ref:3015013)   #14
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I was thinking more early70s
Angus, unless you've been hidden away in a section I don't visit, warm welcome back!!
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 15:43 (Ref:3015044)   #15
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Are you talking about a modern 250 Superkart? Because, if you are, yes. They would be much, much quicker than a 1967-spec Formula One car (even if it was driven by Jim Clark).

The superkarts have so much mechanical grip compared to, for example, an Eagle-Weslake that even the 400-450bhp of a '67 DFV wouldn't help. Furthermore, the karts have a phenomenal power-to-weight.

A '67 F1 car is probably slightly faster than a modern FF1600 car. Eg: my Van Diemen BR001 is probably faster through the corners thanks to better suspension geometry, spring rates, tyre grip but the power of a DFV would more than overcome my 711M block and my mechanical grip advantage.

On the other hand, a 1961-65 spec' car is probably slower than a modern Formula Ford 1600 car as they only had 180-220bhp from their 1.5 litre engines. This isn't enough of an advantage to overcome the FF1600's mechanical grip. I'd imagine that all of this only applies to post-'89 cars though (and well driven Pre-90's). A Historic or Classic FF1600 car would probably be similar to a 1500cc car, and much slower (4-5+ seconds) than a 3000cc car.
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