2010 TOURING CAR MASTERS

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Camaroz, I know where you are coming from & just putting in my 2c on a discussion forum. Even though I disagree with that aspect, I welcome the variety for the series.

Of course the Javelin would not be eligible for Grp N historics because they weren't raced here (that I am aware of), nor were Challengers for that matter. I wonder if there were any eligible cars that we don't see in the Nc category - mind you that is another topic.

My 2c worth,

For Group N, nor should Falcon Sprint's, or Mustangs in 1964 (NB?)!

Your argument against the Javelin as it did not compete in Australia is valid but unfortunately eroded by the other non-historic category, Group N en-toto.

Every 1969/70 Mustang in Group N should not have a bonnet scoop or holes in the bonnet but they do. Adaption and freedoms for the better of the category?????????

Where's the problem?

[Camaroz]

[QUOTE=Juarez Jed;2603072]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Camaroz, I know where you are coming from & just putting in my 2c on a discussion forum. Even though I disagree with that aspect, I welcome the variety for the series.


I'm with you john875.
If you can't source an AMC engine that is affordable and reliable then maybe you shouldn't run a Javelin ? I know the Masters are more flexible than Nc but I didn't realise it was like sports sedans and you can run other manufacturers motors. I agree with you that if you want to run a Mopar then you should run a Dodge, Chrysler or Plymouth.

Please check your history on source of engines for the AMC and get back to me please.

[TOOTHFAIRY]

Sorry guys but being an old fella, and involved in touring cars since 1971, there actually was a bloke who raced a Javilin, in Victoria, at such rounds as the 'Toby Lee' series, etc in the early to mid 70's, it was a terrible 'Mustard' colour, in the same time frame there was also a silver mach one? 1973 Fastback Mustang, complete with factory black side stripes. Cant remember if they ran as series prod, or Improved prod type deals like the Beechey Monaro, etc, but they did run in the era. You have to look at the TCM, in a different light chaps, they are trying to provide close racing so sometimes you have to compramize, with different powertrains to get parity between makes we would love full on Nascar type engines, easy to buy , cheap, etc, but that may lead to one make domination, and boring racing . What we have now ain't broken so it don't need fixing.

[Juarez Jed]

Thats fine toothfairy . Those involved in the category are more than capable of approving or objecting to a vehicle/ engine combo if they so wish. I just assumed that Fords ran Ford engines and Chevs/Holdens ran Chevs and Chryslers ran Mopars. I was just surprised that the rules were so liberal thats all.

[Green Hornet]

Group N(c) cuts off at the end of 1972. Currently TCM is a year longer (some talk about extending to '76).

Eligibiliy for Group N(b) is that the model of car had to have competed somewhere in the world up to the end of 1964 - hence the Sprint and Mustang - built to Appendix J rules (with some minor tweeks, such as tyres, blocks, diffs and such).

Eligibility for Group N(c) is that the model of car had to have competed in Series Production or Improved Production - built to a common set of rules or actually raced in the period where it then can race as it did in the day.

Or words to that effect.

[Green Hornet]

TCM allows blocks, disc brakes and all sorts of goodies that didn't exist in the day - all in the name of 'reliability',

But gees, they sure are quick when you compare their lap times with their Group N counterpart.

It all reeks the hallmarks of what Classic Touring did to get sponsorship on their cars and run with the BTCC in the '90s . . . and look where they are now.

[Juarez Jed]

[QUOTE=Camaroz;2603097]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

Please check your history on source of engines for the AMC and get back to me please.

I have checked my books and as I already knew, AMC sourced engine designs from Chrysler, Nash, Kaiser, Studebaker, Hudson, Nash & Renault. I found out they also ran an Audi 4 cylinder, so I learnt something.
However, I still thought the AMC V8s were specifically designated as AMC engines and were only used in AMC/ Jeep products.
I was unaware of Javelins or AMCs running any engines straight out of the Mopar catalogue that were also used in Dodge, Plymouth or Chrysler products, or engines designated as Mopar engines for that matter. So I don't think any Mopar engine can be automatically assumed to belong in an AMC. It is as historically correct as running a 7 litre Galaxie motor in a GTHO.
If it is there for reliability and cost factors then well and good, and if the other competitors are happy then so be it.

[mountainstar]

[QUOTE=Juarez Jed;2603173]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

If it is there for reliability and cost factors then well and good, and if the other competitors are happy then so be it.

Exactly. It's a great series to watch and for what they do some changes to make it better for them is fine by me.

While it is great some historic cars are preserved as they are, I don't really care otherwise that much for whether the TCM cars have the same brakes or engine blocks as they did back in the day. Kind of like "continuation cars" that are being built by Lola and Chevron. It's not 1969 anymore and we can't live in 1969.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Green Hornet

Group N(c) cuts off at the end of 1972. Currently TCM is a year longer (some talk about extending to '76).

Eligibiliy for Group N(b) is that the model of car had to have competed somewhere in the world up to the end of 1964 - hence the Sprint and Mustang - built to Appendix J rules (with some minor tweeks, such as tyres, blocks, diffs and such).

Eligibility for Group N(c) is that the model of car had to have competed in Series Production or Improved Production - built to a common set of rules or actually raced in the period where it then can race as it did in the day.

Or words to that effect.

So there is a difference as to eligible cars between Nb and Nc. For TCM, it is a combination of the two principles, eligible to race in the world or here in Australia in the TCM period.

[TOOTHFAIRY]

Ok, everybody, lets get some things straight, I own an historic touring car and have built and raced several, I am also building a TCM car, Group N/C, N/B Cars run internals engine wise, with non period components my toranas ran roller engines 330hp, in the day if you got 240hp you were a cheat, in other models they run new blocks [non period] new dart heads, roller rockers etc etc all un heard of in the 60's and 70's, kevlar brakes,all sorts of modern day stuff, but exteriorly they must be original, yes the TCM car is like a sports sedan version of a N/C Car, but guess what the average punter over the fence doesn't know nor care, and he or she are the one's who dictate what we as racers do. I cannot run my N/C car at a V8SC, MEETING, nor can I ask for some one to pay my bill's with my N/C Car, TCM Cars allow racers to show the wider public and TV audience, what fantastic heritage race cars we had and have in Australia, it showcases this fantastic era, it has a flow back effect on HTC Racing, which is great for the State Series etc, all over the country. We can and must share the limelight, for the betterment of all concerned. As for which engine in which car for TCM, They all run an engine by the named manufacturer, Ok if the Javlin runs a Chrysler so be it , it's only because if you run something else the may run off into the distance, and close racing goe's out the window, The Charger, will run an engine similar to the Javlin, but a 340 not 360, so as to be on a par FAIR? ok by me.

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by TOOTHFAIRY

Sorry guys but being an old fella, and involved in touring cars since 1971, there actually was a bloke who raced a Javilin, in Victoria, at such rounds as the 'Toby Lee' series, etc in the early to mid 70's, it was a terrible 'Mustard' colour, in the same time frame there was also a silver mach one? 1973 Fastback Mustang, complete with factory black side stripes. Cant remember if they ran as series prod, or Improved prod type deals like the Beechey Monaro, etc, but they did run in the era. You have to look at the TCM, in a different light chaps, they are trying to provide close racing so sometimes you have to compramize, with different powertrains to get parity between makes we would love full on Nascar type engines, easy to buy , cheap, etc, but that may lead to one make domination, and boring racing . What we have now ain't broken so it don't need fixing.

I remember the silver 'Stang running in Group C.
But never saw the Javilin,I do remember Jim Mc trying to run one in about 1971 and CAMS knocked it back.

[Juarez Jed]

Green hornet and toothfairy, thanks for explaining the rules a little better for me.
I have always enjoyed the Masters cars at Bathurst and Eastern Creek and they certainly go a lot harder and faster than Group Nc and should look great on tele.
I just took exception to Camaroz's way of lecturing in an arrogant manner as if I was 5 years old. I therfore explained my understanding of the AMC engine history just as he challenged me to. I wasn't trying to state a case against the Javelin, just stating an argument against Camaroz implying it was historically proper. If I am wrong then I can live with that.
I have been attending race meetings since the late 60's myself so I was there when Group Nb first became prominent in the early eighties. I fully understand that 30 more years have almost passed since those early races dominated by Mustangs, EH Holdens, Jags and Lotus Cortinas. Seeing the Masters cars running around is a real treat.
I come on forums like this for a laugh, to learn what is going on behind the scenes, and to share opinions with other enthusiasts. I don't come on here to upset others who contribute more to the sport than I ever will, so carry on fellas.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

Green hornet and toothfairy, thanks for explaining the rules a little better for me.
I have always enjoyed the Masters cars at Bathurst and Eastern Creek and they certainly go a lot harder and faster than Group Nc and should look great on tele.
I just took exception to Camaroz's way of lecturing in an arrogant manner as if I was 5 years old. I therfore explained my understanding of the AMC engine history just as he challenged me to. I wasn't trying to state a case against the Javelin, just stating an argument against Camaroz implying it was historically proper. If I am wrong then I can live with that.
I have been attending race meetings since the late 60's myself so I was there when Group Nb first became prominent in the early eighties. I fully understand that 30 more years have almost passed since those early races dominated by Mustangs, EH Holdens, Jags and Lotus Cortinas. Seeing the Masters cars running around is a real treat.
I come on forums like this for a laugh, to learn what is going on behind the scenes, and to share opinions with other enthusiasts. I don't come on here to upset others who contribute more to the sport than I ever will, so carry on fellas.

Apols JJ, I didn't see my response as arrogant! I asked not challenged. Never said it was historically correct! Thanks for the info anyway, good knowledge and research. Please stay with the thread.

CCC

[mildura1963]

Guy's can I ask if there is a list of eligible cars for this category? I though I remembered seeing one once & do not remember any Mopars on the list other than the Valiant Charger.

[mountainstar]

I never realized this, but after doing some reading online, I guess the Javelin was also built in Melbourne back in the day. Never realized that.

[Juarez Jed]

Nor did I mountainstar.......assembled in Port Melbourne.

I remember there were a lot of Hornets on Aussie roads in the early seventies (the little Ramblers....not the "Tim Flock" Hudsons) so I knew they were assembled here as well as the Rebel and Matador IIRC.

That horrible mustard colour toothfairy describes was used on all of them I think , it was also a common colour on Austin Kimberleys . Maybe I should run one of those in TCM with a p76 V8

[Rob Bailey]

Are their any 2 door XA GT's being built up for the series?

[Juarez Jed]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Apols JJ, I didn't see my response as arrogant! I asked not challenged. Never said it was historically correct! Thanks for the info anyway, good knowledge and research. Please stay with the thread.

CCC

Sorry Camaroz
When you said check your facts and get back to me I took it that you had some great knowledge to impart on the subject proving me wrong and instead of just telling me you wanted me to waste 2 hours looking through my American Car books No worries mate

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Rob Bailey

Are their any 2 door XA GT's being built up for the series?

Two at this stage.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Please check your history on source of engines for the AMC and get back to me please.

Perhaps you could explain the relevance/link to Chrysler?

Here are a couple of links that are consistent with my understanding of the AMC V8. Chrysler only bought AMC in 1987.
http://amxfiles.com/resource/tech/v8faq.html
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/amc-engines.html

Don't get me wrong, I think the TCM is a great category & caters well for the 'more serious'/big dollar racer, leaving Grp N for the traditional historic racer.

Rob, I suppose it is not surprising that no 390 Mustangs are run , but a GTA Alfa would have to be a good bet I would have thought.

Here is the eligibility criteria for the TCM from the CAMS manual:
"The Australian Touring Car Masters will be a Series for automobiles that are visual period replicas of models that competed in Australian touring car circuit race series prior to 31 December, 1973, and models that competed elsewhere as Touring Cars prior to 31 December 1973, subject to the prior approval of CAMS."

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Perhaps you could explain the relevance/link to Chrysler?

Here are a couple of links that are consistent with my understanding of the AMC V8. Chrysler only bought AMC in 1987.
http://amxfiles.com/resource/tech/v8faq.html
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/amc-engines.html

Don't get me wrong, I think the TCM is a great category & caters well for the 'more serious'/big dollar racer, leaving Grp N for the traditional historic racer.

Rob, I suppose it is not surprising that no 390 Mustangs are run , but a GTA Alfa would have to be a good bet I would have thought.

Here is the eligibility criteria for the TCM from the CAMS manual:
"The Australian Touring Car Masters will be a Series for automobiles that are visual period replicas of models that competed in Australian touring car circuit race series prior to 31 December, 1973, and models that competed elsewhere as Touring Cars prior to 31 December 1973, subject to the prior approval of CAMS."

With a 390 in a 'Stang there would be some weight over front axles.

[Juarez Jed]

[QUOTE=johnh875;2603534]Perhaps you could explain the relevance/link to Chrysler?



Obviously after 1987 all AMC/ Jeeps became Chryslers and their engines fell under the Mopar umbrella.
However, the only vehicles that I know of that were manufactured by AMC with Chrysler engines prior to the buyout were the 1985-89 M-body police cruisers, badged as Plymouth Gran Furys and Dodge Diplomats, plus AMC also built the Chrysler New Yorker Fifth Avenue luxo-barge on the same platform. Importantly these ran a 318 AND the 360 !!!!!!!!!
I welcome any corrections however.

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Two at this stage.

IMO they need 10inch rims to fill out the guards.
Lets hope those rear guards don't get hit to much.
Any other new cars of interest?

[johnh875]

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/sportre...portRegs-2.pdf
The last two pages of this document have the list of eligible cars, together with weights, rim widths and rev limits.

Rob I agree with you re the 390 Mustang (not listed for TCM also), also it is good to see some new cars coming in, hopefully will add some (more) variety to the front of the field!

[Juarez Jed]

[QUOTE=Juarez Jed;2603544][QUOTE=johnh875;2603534]Perhaps you could explain the relevance/link to Chrysler?



Just a bit more info for you john875 re; the Chrysler link. It comes off wikipedia but sounds credible. AMC built the M-body Chryslers I mentioned in my earlier post because Chrysler had gone FWD in their self-manufactured cars and the AMC Wisconsin factory was old-fashioned enough to build the Dodge/ Plymouth taxi packs and police cruisers plus the Chrysler New Yorker Fifth Avenue which were built on a chassis ( just like the Crown Vic / Mercury Marquis still is today).
So obviously if for parity and cost and reliability in TCM V8s you want to stick to Ford/Chev/Mopar engines that have plenty of modern off the shelf bits readily available the Mopar 360 would be the best fit, not only due to family ties but it is also the same cubic capacity as one of the popular AMC V8s.
That should hopefully satisfy everyone !!