Group B

[BSchneiderFan]

Walter Röhrl said in Autosport's recent piece on Group B that there were only three or four people who could really handle Group B cars. I assume he included himself, but who else did he mean? However you cut it, you're leaving out a lot of great names.

[chunder]

Markku Alen. Drove on the limit routinely

Henri Toivonen. See above

Stig Blomqvist, drove most of the GpB cars at some time.

Timo Salonen and Ari Vatanen. Both world champs in the easiest ofthem all to drive

[S griffin]

Michele Mouton could handle a group B car no sweat

[Thundersports]

You could have a list of around a dozen or so Rallycross drivers who handled them with even more power! If you just mean Rallying no one has mentioned Kankunnen.

[chunder]

The thing with Juha is, he came into Group B later on and only drove the best car, t he 205. Before that the Celica.

Alen had to compete against the Quattros, and still did the most amazing thing I have ever read about, set fastest times on the first stages in Finland in an 037 against 205E2, S1E2 Quattros in the WET!.

Stig drive all of them, 205, Quattro, RS200.

Henri was simply the quickest and Ari and Timo conquered all in the 205. SO praps Juha is in with them.

You can also stick Mikkola in there, but he only drive one car, but it was the template for all of them later. And Rohrl also only really drive Lancia and Audi.

Michele was a great driver, she drove WRC< British rally and later on in a 205 in ERC. ANd she did more for rallying than most

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by chunder

Markku Alen. Drove on the limit routinely

Henri Toivonen. See above

Stig Blomqvist, drove most of the GpB cars at some time.

Timo Salonen and Ari Vatanen. Both world champs in the easiest ofthem all to drive

That's pretty much nailed it I think. I love reading interviews with drivers from that period - they all seem to look back on it with a sense of awe, seemingly aware now (more so than at the time?) just how fast those cars were and just how close to the ragged edge they were driving.

[VIVA GT]

They were fast, but also had raw power. No sophisticated driver aids like they have now, just brute force and driver skill! Fantastic stuff!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

They were fast, but also had raw power. No sophisticated driver aids like they have now, just brute force and driver skill! Fantastic stuff!

The cars now are quicker - but aren't as much of a handful to drive. As you say they were very raw - suspension, tyres, diffs have all moved on hugely - not to mention the engines and power delivery (turbo lag anybody?)

[BSchneiderFan]

Poor Attilio Bettega was an example of someone who stepped up too far, and paid the ultimately price. Interesting that the FIA is going to regulate who can drive the 2017-spec cars.

[chunder]

I wouldn't say Bettega was out of his depth.

The problem was in those days that Lancia were up against Audi and Peugeot for the teams series and knew there were only so many rallies they could stand a chance of winning on. Corsica was one of them.

Cesare would have put an awful lot of pressure on Bettega, Alen and guys like Vudafieri to win in Corsica or Monte if it was dry to score manufacturers points as Attilio was not a drivers championship man, he was there to score the most points he could on certain rounds.

A bit like in modern times Panizzi driving the lead 206 in SPain and France and Gronholm driving for driver points but unable to score team points even if he won the rally. Andrea Aghini used to do tar events for Lancia and Mitsubush in later years similarly.

In the BBC documentary the drivers mentioned the pressure that was being put on them in events by then. That for me is why Bettega was killed, he was pushing too hard on by far the most dangerous event there has ever been in WRC history.

[Alex Langheck]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The cars now are quicker - but aren't as much of a handful to drive. As you say they were very raw - suspension, tyres, diffs have all moved on hugely - not to mention the engines and power delivery (turbo lag anybody?)

Yes, the current WRCars are the fastest rally cars through a stage we’ve ever seen. The ‘problem’ is they don’t appear fast; there’s very little drama. Actually live stage side, they’re fantastic – but on the official WRC TV coverage they don’t seem that way.

[chunder]

Even way back in 87 I remember reading an article from a guy who was on the inside at Lancia, and Pianta was full of himself telling people that bin testing the HF 4x4 was already quicker than a 037 on gravel before the season had started!

GpB cars were over powered, and difficult to drive, which is why the drivers loved them.

Imagine going from an S4 to a Delta 4x4, or a S1E2 Quattro to a 200 Quattro!!

Modern cars are amazing to see live, watch in Finland or Poland and the commitment is insane, the notes are so detailed now, these cars are literally driving like on a race track almost.

It's the big shame that the best events are Monte where the conditions are so unpredictable.

[tbtstt]

Slightly off topic perhaps, but I note that drivers of the 2017 specification cars must first be vetoed by the FiA. Worries about another Joaquim Santos?...

[chunder]

Santos was not a bad driver at all, he was able to get decent results on a few rallies, but was largely confined to Portugal's national series.

He got a top 10 on the rally a few years later in a Sierra, so was no mean peddler, and has done well in rallycross in a very under developed Astra, racing in Montawotsthepoint.

He had never tested the RS200, hardly ever driven it and was rather unprepared. But let's face it the real problem was not really him, it was the stage marshaling and the massive crowds.

There are plenty of places where a driver with little pedigree can get into a very powerful car and race, rallycross being one of them. But you can't do as much damage.

Santos was a decent driver, just not good enough to jump into an RS200 with no testing and be confident.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by Alex Langheck

Yes, the current WRCars are the fastest rally cars through a stage we’ve ever seen. The ‘problem’ is they don’t appear fast; there’s very little drama. Actually live stage side, they’re fantastic – but on the official WRC TV coverage they don’t seem that way.

I still believe that group B is quicker on the straights, but in all other aspects they are less good: traction, handling, cornering speed, turbo lag. Basically the modern cars are too slow for what they can do and the old cars too fast. The new rules should be better I guess (and hope).

[BSchneiderFan]

How much power do modern WRCs put out? The last quattros were hitting 500 bhp.

[chunder]

POower is difficult to assess.

I would suggest anywhere between 320 and 260hp. With decent torque. THe 2 litre cars has enormous torque, similar to our rallycross cars as they were restricted.

GpB again is tricky, power figures are banduied about willy nilly. But Quattro was the most powerful, over 520hp. Delta probably 480 odd along with 205, RS200 420 ish and Metro 380.

Toyota Celica Turbo had 350 odd!

[1975DCS]

Good to see the figures in the latest group B rallycross cars where at least 100 bhp more! Not sure why though

[ArnageWRC]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

How much power do modern WRCs put out? The last quattros were hitting 500 bhp.

Modern WRCars officially about 300BHP....But it is thought they put out about 320/330BHP

Of course, next year they get a power hike to about 360-380+BHP....

Which makes no sense really, as the current WRCars are the fastest cars through a stage ever. Why we're getting faster cars is another of the FiA's masterplans.....

[1975DCS]

It does make sense: more power is more difficult to control. It is not all about stage times. The chassis are currently so good the 300-320 bhp power doesn't upset the cars at all. Personally I think it's a shame the the smallest engines you could think of should suffer from a heavy 33 mm restrictor. While on the other hand is loaded with technology you hardly find on fast road cars, like ALS, 14 cm wheel travel, etc. Any normal tuned car won't have these. Technology is actually killing the sport, too good, too expensive, not recognisable. They should bring WRC back to basic: massive power (either 1.6 or 2.0) on a chassis comparable with a good hot hatch.

[chunder]

THe power in Group A got very silly at times, it was well known that a GpA Coswrth could easily produce 400hp, and many of them did.

So Delta's, Celica's Mitsubishis, were all likely to be way over 350, probably nearer 400.

theri weigth and tyres were the limit.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

Good to see the figures in the latest group B rallycross cars where at least 100 bhp more! Not sure why though

Rallycross is circuit-based. You're not charging through the forests of Finland. A lot more can go wrong in the WRC.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Rallycross is circuit-based. You're not charging through the forests of Finland. A lot more can go wrong in the WRC.

I mean from a technical point of view... They both come out of technical era, but apparently those cars haven't reached their max until late 80's, early 90's...

[BertMk2]

Also a rallycross engine didn't have to survive long - 3 heats and a final - what's that in mileage? 20? 25? A rally engine had to last for a lot longer (especially as the rallies were longer and more spread out).

Group B had excess power - there was more than the cars could usefully use due to limitations in tyres, suspension, drivetrains etc etc. Modern cars have excess grip - the cars run like they're on rails as there isn't enough power to cause the other components to run beyond their limits. The answer is more power or restrictions in the other areas (less grippy tyres, worse shocks, limits on what diffs can do, limits on electronic wizardry etc)

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

Modern WRCars officially about 300BHP....But it is thought they put out about 320/330BHP

The BHP figure is irrelevant really. Torque is the key value for rally cars, and modern engines produce a heap of it. I haven't seen any accurate figures for the 1.6L engines, but some of the late 2.0L WRCars were producing in excess of 450 ft. lbs.

Modern engines produce as much (if not more) torque than the engines of the Group B era and deliver it in a far more controlled fashion. As Bert says, the modern cars are far more compliant as well.

I was pleasantly surprised by the 1.6L WRCars (which I had expected to be gutless) and, as they continue to break stage records, I'm very interested to see how much faster next years cars are going to be.