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Old 13 Nov 2007, 00:19 (Ref:2066134)   #76
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What Knowlesy said...

By the way, no offense to him but Bourdais isn't exactly a household word over here despite what he accomplished in CC.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 07:51 (Ref:2066274)   #77
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Its official:

13/11/2007
BRISCOE TO DRIVE 2008 TEAM PENSKE INDYCAR ENTRY

MOORESVILLE, N.C. (Nov. 12, 2007) - - Australian Ryan Briscoe will drive for Team Penske in the IndyCar Series beginning in 2008, Penske Racing executives announced Monday.
The 26-year-old Briscoe will pilot the No. 6 Team Penske Dallara/Honda sponsored by Philip Morris USA during the 16-event season. Briscoe replaces three-time IndyCar Series champion Sam Hornish Jr., who announced Saturday he will drive the Penske Racing Mobil 1 Dodge in the 2008 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series.
¿I am very excited to race for Team Penske; it¿s a dream come true,¿ Briscoe said. ¿I really want to thank Roger (Penske) and Tim (Cindric) for believing in me and giving me this opportunity. Racing for Penske¿s ALMS program in 2007 has been a highlight in my career, but open-wheel racing is where my heart lies, and I can't wait to race full time in the IndyCar Series for one of the best teams in open-wheel history.¿
The 2008 season marks Briscoe¿s second full-season of IndyCar Series competition. He has 20 career IndyCar starts, highlighted by a pole position at Infineon Raceway. In May, Briscoe drove the No. 12 Symantec Luczo Dragon Racing entry, with equipment leased from Penske Racing, in the 91st annual Indianapolis 500 where he finished fifth after starting seventh.
In 2007, Briscoe shared driving responsibilities with teammate Sascha Maassen for the No. 6 DHL Porsche RS Spyder in the American Le Mans Series for Penske Racing. Together, they earned three victories [St. Petersburg, Salt Lake City and Lime Rock], two poles [Belle Isle and Laguna Seca)] and finished second in the championship. Their teammates, Romain Dumas and Timo Bernhard, earned the championship for Penske Racing behind the wheel of the No. 7 DHL Porsche RS Spyder.

¿Ryan has been a great addition to our organization. He did a terrific job at Indianapolis this year, and delivered for us in our ALMS program,¿ Penske said. ¿Obviously, he has big shoes to fill with Sam moving over to our NASCAR team, but he has shown us that he has the talent to win in the IndyCar Series.¿
Briscoe will team with two-time Indianapolis 500 champion Helio Castroneves for the 2008 season as they set their sights on earning a record 13th national championship and 15th Indianapolis 500 victory for Team Penske.
Penske Racing is the most successful Indy Car racing team in history with 134 race wins, highlighted by a record 14 Indianapolis 500 victories, 12 season championships and 171 pole positions.

http://www.ryanbriscoe.com/
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 11:08 (Ref:2066382)   #78
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gomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
great news for ryan & aussie open wheeler race fans - a genuine indy 500 race winner perhaps, fantastic
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 11:25 (Ref:2066405)   #79
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowlesy
No, but then F1 is never short of a star draw is it? It sure as hell doesn't rely on one guy all the time and only the fans of a certain driver rue their eventual loss. Whenever a star leaves, a star/potential star joins. Does anyone even remember Hakkinen, Montoya, Schumacher when they watch a race? No, not really.
True but Hornisch has never been the IRL lone star

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowlesy
AOWR is a very different kettle of fish. A star name leaving is a problem for two categories already struggling to identify with the American public. Champcar has lost Bourdais and will possibly lose Wilson, leaving it with a grid more miserable than anything I have ever seen. The prospect of Rahal vs Doornbos vs Power, whilst undoubtedly new and fresh, is hardly a riveting thing. Indycar has lost two champs within weeks and I am not sure that Joe Public is jumping up and down excitedly because Ryan Brisoe has filled the breach.
Reasonable point, but you got to consider that only F1 and can expect only "already star" drivers to come. Every other series in the world is meant to develop drivers for future bigger ones; their appeal is right in this ability.

After all we all understandably glorify Sam's talent; but was he considered a great addition when he appeared in IRL? He was unknown to most, then he became what we see thanx to IRL.
(Thus, before convicting Briscoe apriori, I'd let him show what he can do on an entire mono-commitment IRL season.)

The same can be said , more or less, about Bourdais, whose more recent wins (2006) have however been tainted by a growing lack of valuable competition, both in terms of drivers and teams.

About Franchitti, that's a very different case, because at the beginning of 2007 he had planned to retire at the end of the season, but the unexpected triumphs convinced him to look for a even higher wage in Nascar.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 11:31 (Ref:2066411)   #80
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Jimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSSC
What Knowlesy said...

By the way, no offense to him but Bourdais isn't exactly a household word over here despite what he accomplished in CC.
Of course not, he's too dominant and boring. If you're listing the current househould names in AOWR most would probably say Castroneves, Kanaan, Dixon, Patrick and Tracy. Outgoing ones on their way to NASCAR is Franchitti (but he only became one 7 months ago!) and Hornish, while many potential ones have been lost from both series.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 14:28 (Ref:2066602)   #81
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I daresay most Americans had never heard of Alex Zanardi when he signed for Ganassi - and there could be no doubting his star power.

The issue is the product of open wheel racing, and the lack of people "buying" - its a lot easier to sell a "star" from a popular product that sells.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 18:41 (Ref:2066730)   #82
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luke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridluke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Positives: Briscoe, Mutoh and Lloyd are all good young drivers that could be future of series and have talent and a good mix for the series.

Negatives: Hornish Jr and Franchitti, open wheel veterens and both well known although the later for his wife and flips! Hornish was what the IRL was. He was American and dramatic and brought excitment. He was what the IRL needs, and many compared him to Rick Mears oval talent wise. But I don't think along with Lazier etc they can replace the hole that has been left. Talent wise the new step up drivers may be talented and the future just not what America is going to tune into. Hornish, Danica and Andretti at Indy last lap battle is what people want to see.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 23:12 (Ref:2066948)   #83
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I'm more and more looking forward to next year. I'm sure ESPN can create some good new stories about the young guns going at it. Ryan desvered another chance in IRL and now he's got it!
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 06:58 (Ref:2067091)   #84
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke
He was American and dramatic and brought excitment.
And thats it. We have an american being replaced by an Australian, A scotsman being replaced by a Japenese driver and the half time appointment of an Englishman.

These guys could all be the next Zinardi, but it doesnt help the loss of Americans in an American sport.
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 10:24 (Ref:2067168)   #85
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Mystery should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMystery should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The IRL want the Indy 500 in particular to be the world's greatest motor race so they need it to be more than a national championship. Granted this might affect marketability in the US so maybe there's a choice to be made there. Allow the 500 to be devalued by attracting more of the Billy Bobs & John Boys who aspire to be NASCAR Truck drivers or continue to attract some of the better available drivers on the world stage. You probably can't do both.
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 11:06 (Ref:2067190)   #86
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It is a quandry: How do you call yourself the best, if you don't have the best? One of the things I liked when Emmo and Nigel and so many other terrific drivers migrated over was that the Unsers, the Andrettis, Rick Mears, Danny Ongais, and guys like that were ready and willing to answer the bell.

The European/South American drivers didn't dominate, but they did help raise the bar. The problem now is not so much the lack of American talent in AOWR, but the lack of significance associated with AOWR.

Hence, Bourdais is unknown not because winning all the time got boring, but the overall context became devalued. For whatever reasons the perception is that the best racing and the best talent in North America is not participating in any open-wheel series (unless it might be the World of Outlaws!) in the US of A.

Ask the casual fan if you have to be a great driver to win the Nextel Cup Championship. I am sure they will say yes. Ask them if you have to be a great driver to win the Vanderbilt Cup (or whatever the IRL gives out) and they will say: "What's that for?"

Relevancy - that is the operative word - and unfortunately open wheel racing is no longer relevant. Can it be again? That is the big question...
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 12:06 (Ref:2067231)   #87
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Rome was not built in a day John, nor was Nascar's dominance; it will take time, first thing being to have an unified OW series.
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 13:22 (Ref:2067301)   #88
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Mystery should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMystery should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
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Rome was not built in a day John, nor was Nascar's dominance; it will take time, first thing being to have an unified OW series.
Very true but that is for another thread. Let's try and keep this one unlocked I think......
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Old 15 Nov 2007, 04:53 (Ref:2067748)   #89
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Jeff Olsens view on the Hornish departure

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/41589/
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Old 15 Nov 2007, 07:38 (Ref:2067786)   #90
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Nothing surprising in this feature really; I still keep my opinion that a demotivated champ collecting disappointing placements is no good for a series.
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Old 15 Nov 2007, 10:53 (Ref:2067899)   #91
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Yes, I agree there, climb. At some point the person has to either retire or find a new challenge if not within the series than in a different one.
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Old 15 Nov 2007, 12:59 (Ref:2067988)   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSSC
Yes, I agree there, climb. At some point the person has to either retire or find a new challenge if not within the series than in a different one.
which is pretty much what I said earlier

I do not see this to be the huge blow that people are saying it is. I think people are just using it as an excuse to have yet another pop at the IRL

it's old, it's boring and it isn't constructive

Good luck to Sam in NASCAR and IRL will move on.....

Simple as that, get on with it...
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Old 16 Nov 2007, 00:41 (Ref:2068489)   #93
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Nothing surprising in this feature really; I still keep my opinion that a demotivated champ collecting disappointing placements is no good for a series.

Who knows what he could have pulled out in the 08 season though? For example Franchitti coming from nowhere from 06.

A demotivated Hornish Jr, a multiple champion and 2006 Indy champion probably still does more in attractive casual race fans and media stories than Briscoe, Dixon, Mutoh or Lloyd.
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Old 16 Nov 2007, 07:15 (Ref:2068591)   #94
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Franchitti is a different story; as i told before, He had any intention to retire, but the unexpected 2007 convinced him to keep on driving.

Hornish, on the contgrary is still young and has, via Penske organisation, a chance to go Nascar, then I don't believe that, had he stayed one more year in IRL, he would have found unpredictable motivations.

His aim is Nascar, we've known it for years.

About appeal to casual fans, you're easily right, but had Panther followed the same reasoning about Sam 5 yrs ago....

More in general, drivers are expected to pass by, IRL's strenght is in their major teams, which are staying

Last edited by climb; 16 Nov 2007 at 07:23.
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Old 16 Nov 2007, 09:49 (Ref:2068714)   #95
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Franchitti is a different story; as i told before, He had any intention to retire, but the unexpected 2007 convinced him to keep on driving.
The franchitti example was more used to say, who says Hornish was not going to be competitive and fighting for the championship in 08.


Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
His aim is Nascar, we've known it for years.
Really ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
About appeal to casual fans, you're easily right, but had Panther followed the same reasoning about Sam 5 yrs ago....
There is a difference between a home grown american and a sportscar driving Australian though

Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
IRL's strenght is in their major teams, which are staying
Surely the drivers are the stars. While obviously the resources of Penske, Ganassi and AGR are a strength, I dont think that this is comparative to star drivers.
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Old 16 Nov 2007, 10:56 (Ref:2068764)   #96
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There is a "credibility factor" that goes with having strong, recognizable teams though. Getting a drive with Penske, Ganassi or AGR is part of what defines a driver as a "star."

The implication is that being with an established, winning team means that you have the goods. Fans take notice of things like that...
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Old 16 Nov 2007, 13:02 (Ref:2068825)   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Franchitti is a different story; as i told before, He had any intention to retire, but the unexpected 2007 convinced him to keep on driving.

Hornish, on the contgrary is still young and has, via Penske organisation, a chance to go Nascar, then I don't believe that, had he stayed one more year in IRL, he would have found unpredictable motivations.

His aim is Nascar, we've known it for years.

About appeal to casual fans, you're easily right, but had Panther followed the same reasoning about Sam 5 yrs ago....

More in general, drivers are expected to pass by, IRL's strenght is in their major teams, which are staying
yep, of the 4 big teams in the states (Penske, AGR, Ganassi and NHL) the IRL has three of them and that is where the strength is, thats going to amount 9 very strong cars next season and plus we await to see what Panther and Rahal bring to to the table, the Patron car had strong spells last season and I think the #8 team will step it up more in 2008, be great to see Sharpie in victory lane again.

It was first mentioned around 2003 that Hornish was interested in NASCAR but opted to stay in the IRL moving from Panther to Penske, it's worked out well for him that Penske has been able to move him into his NASCAR cup team

Like i've said before, way to much has been made of this and although it doesn't surprise me given the motives of various people I believe we have now more than exhausted this topic
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Old 17 Nov 2007, 08:57 (Ref:2069411)   #98
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSSC
There is a "credibility factor" that goes with having strong, recognizable teams though. Getting a drive with Penske, Ganassi or AGR is part of what defines a driver as a "star."
Definitely. But people like Dixon, Kanaan, Herta and arent stars because of those teams. They are talented drivers, no doubt but not household stars that AOW is crying out for.

Briscoe and Mutoh because they are driving for Penske and AGR respectively are not going to be stars or attract serious attention, even if they start winning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSSC
The implication is that being with an established, winning team means that you have the goods. Fans take notice of things like that...
Do they in 2007? Enthusiasts do for sure, but general fans a) dont understand b) dont recognise and c) dont care.

Last edited by D.R.T.; 17 Nov 2007 at 09:01.
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Old 17 Nov 2007, 11:52 (Ref:2069492)   #99
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I did not say they automatically become stars because of who they drive for. The quality of the team is just on piece of the perception puzzle that fans put together to determine who the "stars" are.
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