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Old 9 Oct 2018, 07:43 (Ref:3855600)   #3326
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Michelin also were pushing for a return for a tyre war. They prefer competition
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 12:19 (Ref:3855659)   #3327
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
I note with interest that Michelin were happy to supply the 15" Champcar-sized
tyres for Superleague Formula (sized to fit 15"x12" front rims, 15x16 rear rims -- slightly beefier than the 15x11 front & 15x14 rear rims used by IRL and current Indycar).

I wonder why Michelin refused to tender for F1 and demanded 18" for F1 then!?

15" would be a good compromise rim size for F1 between 13" and 18" IMO.




15" tyres look good don't you think?

Crucially the overall diameter of the front tyre is smaller than the rear... Unlike in modern F1 that looks silly with 660 mm overall diameter fronts (same as rear tyre overall diameter) compared to the classic looking 635mm overall diameter front tyres used in the Goodyear era.
"I wonder why Michelin refused to tender for F1 and demanded 18" for F1 then!?"

It will be down to cost. Why spend money on developing a 15" tyre, when they have an 18" tyre that works perfectly well.
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 14:44 (Ref:3855688)   #3328
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Waaat?!!

No thanks!!!
Yes leave it alone please Liberty...
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 15:04 (Ref:3855690)   #3329
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came across this pic on reddit the other day of the 2005 Indy grid.



for me its not an issue of one supplier getting it wrong (FOM should have a found a compromise to let everyone run that day).

my problem with a tire war, and what i think this picture truly reflects, is the gap between the teams who used the same supplier....particularly among those teams which share the same rubber as Ferrari.

flash forward 13 years, and we have a greater division between a works team and it's customers plus a significantly wider margin between their budgets.

in all likelihood these new 'slave' teams will use the same supplier as their works benefactor team. so if we get a tire war, i fear it will just just increase the margin between the have and have not teams.
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 16:01 (Ref:3855702)   #3330
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Don't forget, chilli, that back then the tyres produced by Bridgestone were constructed specifically for the Ferraris, and tested endlessly by them at Fiorano, without any regard for other user despite how close their relationship with the Scuderia.


In fact, back then, Ferrari got their tyres for nothing (and may have even received sponsorship from Bridgestone) whilst other users had to buy them from the company!
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 16:05 (Ref:3855704)   #3331
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That was very very sad, I was embarrassed for Formula1 in front of American fans...
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 16:27 (Ref:3855708)   #3332
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And that was also the season to of no tyre changes and a limited set of tyres per weekend
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 16:50 (Ref:3855712)   #3333
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And that was also the season to of no tyre changes and a limited set of tyres per weekend
In 2005 a driver had to use one set of tyres during qualifying and one set during the race.
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 03:26 (Ref:3855814)   #3334
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"I wonder why Michelin refused to tender for F1 and demanded 18" for F1 then!?"

It will be down to cost. Why spend money on developing a 15" tyre, when they have an 18" tyre that works perfectly well.
I'm all for 18" -- the problem is 18" LMP tyres have a larger overall diameter than Formula car tyres.

F1 and Indycar tyres only have an approximately 660mm overall diameter, quite a bit smaller than what LMP1 and GT racing use. The change to 18" will be a break from tradition and will increase the overall diameter of the tyres slightly.
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 03:29 (Ref:3855815)   #3335
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for me its not an issue of one supplier getting it wrong.
Avons for everybody! Development smelopment. It's a slick tyre, it works; there a full range of 13" (or Champcar 15" or 1970's 16") diameter slicks available; including the classic 16.2/26.0-13 rears as modelled by the lovely Ferrari 643 (my favourites!)... Why make the decision so complicated!?

http://www.avonmotorsport.com/histor...acing%20slicks

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Old 10 Oct 2018, 10:55 (Ref:3855882)   #3336
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I'm all for 18" -- the problem is 18" LMP tyres have a larger overall diameter than Formula car tyres.

F1 and Indycar tyres only have an approximately 660mm overall diameter, quite a bit smaller than what LMP1 and GT racing use. The change to 18" will be a break from tradition and will increase the overall diameter of the tyres slightly.
Being 18" they will have a larger diameter but is it about a break from tradition or more to do with aesthetics? In 2014 the Lotus F1 team tested 18" tyres and rims and they look alright to me. What do others think?

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Old 10 Oct 2018, 10:59 (Ref:3855883)   #3337
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Avons for everybody! Development smelopment. It's a slick tyre, it works; there a full range of 13" (or Champcar 15" or 1970's 16") diameter slicks available; including the classic 16.2/26.0-13 rears as modelled by the lovely Ferrari 643 (my favourites!)... Why make the decision so complicated!?

http://www.avonmotorsport.com/histor...acing%20slicks

I like the Avon idea but it's far too simple for Formula 1, they like to make things overly complicated.

What's that odd looking pink thing, in front of the airbox?
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 12:12 (Ref:3855896)   #3338
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I like the Avon idea but it's far too simple for Formula 1, they like to make things overly complicated.

What's that odd looking pink thing, in front of the airbox?
Sebastian Vettel?
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 12:31 (Ref:3855906)   #3339
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Sebastian Vettel?
Hard to tell from that angle.
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 12:33 (Ref:3855907)   #3340
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Clearly Ferrari were up to tricks back then as well, putting things in the airbox to distract from other parts of the car...
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Old 10 Oct 2018, 14:15 (Ref:3855916)   #3341
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Hard to tell from that angle.
Its a cabbage patch kid of course...
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Old 15 Oct 2018, 12:01 (Ref:3856920)   #3342
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Being 18" they will have a larger diameter but is it about a break from tradition or more to do with aesthetics? In 2014 the Lotus F1 team tested 18" tyres and rims and they look alright to me. What do others think?

Not very nice

Last edited by Peter Mallett; 15 Oct 2018 at 14:20. Reason: Removed the offending auto censor dodge.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 00:20 (Ref:3868173)   #3343
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FIA announce a few rule tweaks, including grid penalties.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140541
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 00:44 (Ref:3868177)   #3344
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FIA announce a few rule tweaks, including grid penalties.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140541
The rules all seem to be good except:

Unlimited CFD

and

Yet more weight!
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 09:54 (Ref:3868225)   #3345
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I like the new grid penalty, means they will now have something to fight for and stops teams trying to gain an advantage by being the first to replace a part
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:49 (Ref:3868301)   #3346
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Unlimited CFD
right! and with the spoils going to those who can afford the most computing power, hire the most staff, those who can investigate more development paths before settling on the best solution.

at risk of being a broken record on this but havent we been down this road before?

access to money should not be the defining characteristic of any sport imo.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 16:24 (Ref:3868310)   #3347
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But look how much money they're saving with the testing ban!


Sigh.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 17:18 (Ref:3868324)   #3348
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Unlimited CFD
I have mixed feelings about this. I haven't looked, but I assume the CFD computing limits were set quite a long time ago (when measured in computer technology years). I can imagine that the prior limits may be absurdly low today. They may have just felt that raw compute power is cheap enough that it shouldn't be something high on the list of limiting. Especially if it is billed as a cost saving device.

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right! and with the spoils going to those who can afford the most computing power, hire the most staff, those who can investigate more development paths before settling on the best solution.

at risk of being a broken record on this but havent we been down this road before?

access to money should not be the defining characteristic of any sport imo.
I agree on the "money" stuff as that is my mantra which seeps into most of my posts. My gut tends to tell me that this may not trigger any type of significant staffing up of people resources, but may just allow them to iterate quicker. But there is another side of CFD that is missing...

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But look how much money they're saving with the testing ban!
My understanding is that CFD is only going to be as good as your modelling methods. And that you can crank out virtual designs all day (and night) long, but the real question is... will it perform as expected when actually on the car on track?

I suspect a large part of actual wind tunnel time (which I believe is still controlled) is used to correlate and confirm the CFD results. And even then, you really don't know if it is "good" until you get on track. So if you are doing a crappy job with your CFD and tunnel testing you will struggle on track. And you may be at a loss as to "why" it's not working as expected. We seem to routinely hear about "bad correlation" driving teams down dead end paths and that can set the tone for an entire season (or more).

So I also am a fan of increasing "on track" testing time. Iteration via CFD and being able to physically verify should help teams create workable solutions. But trying to stuff this validation phase into part of Friday free practice is not enough!

Richard
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Old 7 Dec 2018, 09:23 (Ref:3868488)   #3349
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My understanding is that CFD is only going to be as good as your modelling methods. And that you can crank out virtual designs all day (and night) long, but the real question is... will it perform as expected when actually on the car on track?

I suspect a large part of actual wind tunnel time (which I believe is still controlled) is used to correlate and confirm the CFD results. And even then, you really don't know if it is "good" until you get on track. So if you are doing a crappy job with your CFD and tunnel testing you will struggle on track. And you may be at a loss as to "why" it's not working as expected.
Richard
So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
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Old 7 Dec 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3868592)   #3350
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So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
It's also down to how good the initial CAD model of the car is, which is the starting point for a CFD simulation.
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