How good was Brundle?

[doug911]

I'm just reading some stuff about that fantastic 83 F3 battle between Brundle and Senna and they really we're pretty evenly matched. Brundle also beat Schumacher and Hakkinen in F1 on his day, so what went wrong......bad luck.....bad decisions?

Was he a classic example of wasted talent or not really that good?

[Born Racer]

Some drivers are better suited to some categories than others. It's unlikely anyone would argue Senna was significantly better than Brundle, and indeed many other drivers, but Senna appeared to demonstrate to a greater extent his superior talent in F1.

This "if you can drive, you can drive" idea isn't universal to all drivers. Some are good all-rounders (Stirling Moss, maybe even Valentino Rossi), and some are better suited to certain styles of car.

Also, Martin showed up fairly well against Schumacher at times in the Benetton in 1992, although Michael soon got up to speed.

[BootsOntheSide]

He had a big crash in his rookie year in F1, in practice in Dallas, and may have taken time to fully recover from that. He then struggled to get into a competitive car, not really getting one until he was hired as Schumacher's #2 for 1992 by Benetton. He took some great results there and beyond, but maybe he wasn't quite good enough to lead a top team to glory.

[Mike_Wooshy]

In F1 I dont think Martin did shine to well, Id point to his numerious Le Mans, GTP and other sportscar achievements as a messure of his ability (very high).

[jimclark]

He and John Nielsen made a good duo here in the States in the Jag in '88 IMSA...

[Dutton]

Brundle was a very good driver, IMO. Not absolutely top-drawer, but better than many.

I pretty much have the view of him as he does of himself.

[runshaw]

He had a few podium finishes and won the 24hr of Le Mans, many drivers would kill for this record (as 75% plus F1 drivers never get to the top 3). But in F1 terms, he was just good I think, overshadowed by the inexperienced Schumi in 1992 which was Brundle's only real shot. He is always competitve in anything he races even nowadays: he did 3 races at Spa this year in Formula Palmer Audi against up and coming talent and got top 6 results against drivers who are looking to graduate to F3, not too shabby!

[runshaw]

Bit of trivia also to show how good Brundle was, is the fact that Hollywood picked up on him! The classic cult film 'The Fly' (1986) had a character named Seth Brundle played by famous actor Seth Goldblum, and the character's name came from Martin Brundle believe it or not! And 'The Fly 2' (1989) had Seth's son in it, named 'Martin Brundle'! I have no idea why this is, but you will find that the character's name is indeed taken from race car champion Martin Brundle! David Cronenberg and Eric Stoltz (directors of the films, were apparently fans of Brundle and his racing!)

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by jimclark

He and John Nielsen made a good duo here in the States in the Jag in '88 IMSA...

I don't like to quote pictures (let alone go off topic), but golly gee whiz - weren't they fantastic looking race cars?

[Born Racer]

How odd runshaw!

And those were indeed fantastic-looking. I remember as a kid having posters of that era's sportscars on my wall, and they captivated me.

[Dutton]

Those of that era tend to be the diecasts I dribble most over, I must say. I think it is the elegant simplicity of the designs, mostly. Proably in part, too, due to the rear section being reminiscent, for me, of the 312-T2 (one of my absolute favourite F1 cars).

[RaiseYourFist]

Yeah its a shame current LMP cars look so stupid in comparison...

[Kempi]

Rumour is, Senna initially had a contract clause that didn't allow Brundle in the same team. So he apparently rated him very highly.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Brundle was a very good driver, IMO. Not absolutely top-drawer, but better than many.

I pretty much have the view of him as he does of himself.

I'd agree with you (and him).

Like Johnny Herbert, he sustained an injury early in his career which may well have taken a little bit of an edge off his talent.

[Graz]

Brundle was good but more in a solid sort of way than anything else, a bit like Heidfeld today. I do think Benetton dropped him too quickly. IIRC he had a pretty bad start to that season which sealed his fate and he never qualified too well but he did have some truly stunning races that year.

He was a great sportscar driver - is he the the only driver to finish what was it first AND third when when he drove both Jags in a race in was it 1990, the first year of the post Group C regs. He was very emotional on the podium as I remember.

Re the Group C comments above, yes, truly amongst the prettiest cars ever to race - the Porsche 956/962 and Sauber Merc C11 were simply gorgeous.

[tonful]

I can remember seeing a lot of the F3 races from that season and whilst Brundle was always right on Senna's tail he was rarely in front, although that may have been because whenever he tried to pass Senna had them both off!

He did suffer from bad luck once he got to F1. The only times he got into a decent seat was at Mclaren only to find they had Peugeot engines which were awful, his overheated on the startline at the British GP.
Then at Bennetton only to have the then unknown Schumacher as his team mate.

Flavio described him as 'the best number two in the world' which looking back is probably quite a compliment although I don't think that Brundle saw it that way at the time.

[Dutton]

In 1992, by his own admission, in the early part of the year, a lotof things went all wrong because he was so focused on beating Michael. After a time, he realised Michael was Michael something special (which he recognised he himself was not), so he wasn't going to "blow his brains out over it". After this realisation things went better for him. I think the team would've done far better to continue with Martin than to switch to Ricardo for 1993, but there you go.

I have to admit to a bit of bias with Martin because I always get a bit soft towards drivers when they show they have some brains.

With regards to the F3 thing, well, being right on Senna's tail is plenty of a compliment. Running behind is understandable, but being on his tail is truly commendable! That trying to pass Senna would result in an accident is hardly surprising: Ayrton was a brutally unethical guy when it came to racing.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Dutton

With regards to the F3 thing, well, being right on Senna's tail is plenty of a compliment. Running behind is understandable, but being on his tail is truly commendable! That trying to pass Senna would result in an accident is hardly surprising: Ayrton was a brutally unethical guy when it came to racing.

If I remember correctly didn't Senna win the first 6 of 7 races and then Brundle started winning which rattled Ayrton. Senna only won the championship by 9 points. 132 to Brundles 123, so it was pretty close.

When Brundle was in front, it didn't always last!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hCBREr...eature=related

Brundle was spectacular in the Tyrrell, and given the breaks could have one a few races. I think he's pretty happy with his career and is certainly very good at what he's doing now.

[jonboy1066]

Although I can't say off the top of my head how good Brundell was or is, I do recommend that you read his book "Working The Wheel". It's the best motorsport related autobiography I've ever read, there's some amazing stories in there, including when he spun his car between the walls at Adeleide in the rain amazingly without hitting a wall but he got disorientated as to which way he was pointing and was faced with the dialemma of
"Do I carry on the way I'm facing, possibly into the path of oncoming cars and cause a big crash or do I hope I see a point of referance which will tell me I'm heading the right way"

and his famous crash where the race got stopped and he had to run back to get into his spare car, once he got into his car, he was so dazed by the crash that he had to ask the pit crew which track he was at and what way to turn when he left the pits. That was the point where they decided he wasn't going to race that day LOL The bloke's a legend in my eyes.

[Dutton]

Yeah, Alan, it is something like that. If you had asked me about this stuff a few years ago, then I could've rattled information like some freaky machine. As the years progress, though, I am less able to attain this. It isn't that I care less about motorsport, but rather that it presents itself in different forms.

I think Brundle is like Salo in a lot of ways. A severe talent that never got its chance, but showed itself lesser machinery. An obvious similarity is that both excelled in Tyrells. Salo did some brilliant things with Tyrell. In Monaco 1997, for instance, he didn't make a pitstop. He got points (5th/6th?). He did other distinctly impressive things...but finishing a race with no stops in a stop era?

Salo is as flawed as any other driver, but I think he is more talented than his motorsport results suggest (his time in the ALMS has helped redress this to a point).

[Albeckinho]

And Salo was fourth at Monaco in 1998. When he still was driving for Tyrrell, he was offered a place beside Schumacher but he said he wasn't ready yet and asked them to call someday later (which was pretty stupid thing to do, how many times a Tyrrell driver gets offered a place in Ferrari?) Eventually he got six race stint with Maranello outfit but then he flushed his career by struggling with Sauber and Toyota.

[BootsOntheSide]

I'd put Brundle above Salo - I don't think Martin would have qualified the Ferrari as low as 18th, as Salo did at the Hungaroring. Out of the current drivers he was probably most similar to Heidfeld. Fast and solid, drove intelligently, pleasant outside the car, a good guy for a promising youngester to learn from - but not ultimately fast enough to be a World Champion.

[Dutton]

I'd put Salo above Brundle in brute pace terms. Given one or other, I'd take Salo. Brundle has it as overall driver, but given the chioce I'd take Salo.

***

I must acknowledge my Salo bias at his point. I thik Mika is a talent beyond his recognition.

[ivanalesi]

I've got to admit I'm no fan of the driver, because he crashed in front of Alesi in Monaco while being lapped and then gone off road at Nurburgring in front of the battling Schumacher and Alesi.
But I don't know what started their little feud, may be it wasn't reported here!? I just remember Jean said at Spa 94 that Brundle was driving McLaren just because there were no free drivers.
On pace, he did quite a good job at Ligier, especially in 93 and the next time he was close to Panis.

[Super Hans]

Yes, there's no love lost between Alesi & Brundle.