Brabham BT23

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

& Low Cost Racing apparently. May no longer be with us sadly.

Andrew

Drew...are we talking about fellow 10/10er Delta??

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...52917#poststop

[Andrew Fellowes]

Mick it was Glenn Hyatt, He is on the FIA form for BT23-6 for the period 1971 to 1976. This is most likely wrong as the car went to Japan at the end of '67 and certainly appears to be still there in 1975.
When the car now in America claiming to be 23-6 first appeared in historic racing it was known to have a wobbly history. It was all very mysterious, deliveries in car parks at night by unknown individuals, it was assumed that it wasn't kosher at the time and it still looks that way! But what is it? A Brabham for sure, but what?

Andrew

[Chris Townsend]

Andrew

Can I throw in a suggestion about the Hyatt car?
We think that this might have been rebuilt from the EMC/Ehrlich which was thought to have been based on a BT23 [at Rouen 1970 A/S goes so far as to call it BT23 like] Correct?

At Brands 19 Oct 1969 MN says of the EMC 'ex Lambert'

Now, Ehrlich certainly bought one of Lambert's cars - the BT21 which had been used in F2 in 1967. It was damaged in a trailer accident in 1968 and Ehrlich bought it still damaged. MN 10 April 69 describes this and says it is intended for Bev Bond and George Dixon as a libre car. This car is for sale in A/S in Sept 69 with an FVA in it and by 1971 is with Jonny Dimsdale as a libre car ['ex Lambert BT21C' MN 1.7.71 p.10 and confirmed by Dimsdale] then to Spencer Elton with chassis no noted by Steve Wilkinson? in 1975

This car being for sale with an FVA engine in Sept 69 suggests to me that it can't really be the 'ex Lambert' car that Keele uses with an MAE a few weeks later.
Does Dr Ehrlich in fact buy the remains of both poor Lambert's cars, from the family, using the less damaged one [BT21-30] as the libre car and the frame from the car wrecked in the fatal crash at Zandvoort [BT23-4] as the basis of the EMC.

This hypothesis would accomodate both the MN claim for it being Lambert's car and the A/S observation that the car was based on a BT23

Chris

[Andrew Fellowes]

That fits, not only that far more logical to use 23C-4, I wonder if anyone has photos from Zandvoort?
As I can remember the suspension 'was all wrong' for a BT23 when Coleman had it, but perhaps Simon can tell us what his views on the chassis are when it passed through his hands?

As it happens I went through A/S 1974 yesterday looking for the Low Cost Racing ads to see if there was anything there but no luck.
As for BT23-6, we may have located it but I'm trying to get confirmation, and its not in the USA! I spent some time with David Jacobs two weeks ago and it would be nice to give him some good news on his BT23!!

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Just trying to date some of this,
Roger Keele joined Ehrlich Engineering for 1968, prior to that Chris Lambert had introduced Keele to Alan McKechnie for whom he was racing and had rebuilt a crunched F3 Cooper racing it in July '67. (so there's the Lambert - Ehrlich connection via Keele)

A small spanner in the works is that it's June '68 that they decide to build an F3, now that's a month prior to Lambert's accident at the end of July, however this may still be possible because as far as I can see from a quick search the EMC does not race 'till August 18th at Brands Hatch.

Andrew
Edit, Chris your hypothesis seems more and more likely.

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT23C-11
1968 Winklemann for Rees and Mitter
1969 Bill Ivey
1971 Brian Cullen, (mechanic Steve Mills)
1973 Harold & Gerry McGarrity
nothing more ‘till
1990 Mark Raymond or Rayment, UK
2004 for sale Maverick
2005 Sold Bonhams, RAF Hendon

Does anyone know where this one went next?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Questions,
1. Mike Keele father of Roger & Tony and involved with the 1st F3 EMC?
2. Was the 1969 EMC a different chassis from the 1968? -I see some places say the 68 worked on over winter, others say a new car based on the BT23.
3. The 1971 EMC 606 was the 1969 EMC BT23 based car?

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

BT23C

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

This Darlington business may have started here: Motoring News 3 Jun 1971 p19: Llandow libre report: "Robin Darlington turned up too late for scrutineering and was refused practice"; "His car on this occasion was a BT23-FVA, reputedly ex-Hart". So this could be BT23C-12, last seen late 1970, or BT23C-9 which vanished at the end of 1968.

Allen

[Andrew Fellowes]

1969 A/S March 21, p.45

how do they vanish like this?
Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT23C-12 ??



1971 A/S Nov 11 p.46
Andrew

[allenbrown]

The Traco engine and four T86B corners would suggest the remains of Peter Hawtin's equipe. The BT23C is pictured in sprint/hillclimb spec so BT23C-12 makes sense.

[Andrew Fellowes]

any clues as to this one?

1971 A/S Jan 7th, p.52
Ex Brian Redmond Lola T100 F2 etc etc;

Brabham BT23C/29 Spec. whole car stripped and rebuilt FVA installed .......£3,850 available at this price due to unexpected change of plans
RADSTOCK 3285

[Andrew Fellowes]

1971 A/S Sep. 30, p.55
Mondello Park

Ted Shanahan BT23C

?

[Andrew Fellowes]

dble post removed

Andrew

[allenbrown]

RADSTOCK 3285 is Robin Darlington

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

1971 A/S Sep. 30, p.55
Mondello Park

Ted Shanahan BT23C

?

I have just hit the same puzzle. At the July Leinster Trophy, Ted Shanahan is listed among the entry in the ex-Magee Lotus 35 but is listed in the report, on the grid and in the results in a Brabham BT23C. Brian Cullen had brought along his ex-Ivy BT23C (BT23C-11) for Lingard Goulding but didn't have a working engine so it's possible Shanahan had hired that and fitted the twin cam from his Lotus. Kinnear (BT23C-16) and Todd (BT23-1) were both present in their similar cars.

EDIT: Just noticed we have a gap for BT23C-11 after Cullen in early 1971 until Harold & Gerry McGarrity in 1973.

[Andrew Fellowes]

bump.

Originally Posted by allenbrown

We have Chris Choat in a Brabham BT36 in 1974 but I've found him a year earlier in a Brabham BT23C which seems to have escaped our attention so far.

References are:

Silverstone libre 18 Mar 1973 (4th) - Autosport 22 Mar 1973 p17
Silverstone libre 1 Jul 1973 (5th) - Autosport 5 Jul 1973 p43

It was said to still have a FVA engine.

Any ideas?

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Are you sure Allen ????? Im sure that would be the dealer who had the Mirages whos name I cant remember !!!!! Just remembered his name was Robinson.

[allenbrown]

Derek Robinson? Owner of Motor Racing Supplies just a few miles away in Frome, Somerset? Yes, you're right. I wrote that last post with far too much confidence!

Darlington and Robinson were connected in some way about this time as Robinson advertised that ex-Darlington Lola T100 in Nov 1970 and Darlington was entered once in Robinson's March 701/72A in late 1972;

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I have just hit the same puzzle. At the July Leinster Trophy, Ted Shanahan is listed among the entry in the ex-Magee Lotus 35 but is listed in the report, on the grid and in the results in a Brabham BT23C. Brian Cullen had brought along his ex-Ivy BT23C (BT23C-11) for Lingard Goulding but didn't have a working engine so it's possible Shanahan had hired that and fitted the twin cam from his Lotus. Kinnear (BT23C-16) and Todd (BT23-1) were both present in their similar cars.

EDIT: Just noticed we have a gap for BT23C-11 after Cullen in early 1971 until Harold & Gerry McGarrity in 1973.

But at Mondello Park in September (MN 23 Sep 1971 p15) Shanahan's car is said to be a BT18 t/c.

[allenbrown]

And then in a IMRC sprint at Ratoath, County Meath on 11 October, Ted Shanahan wins his class in a BT23-t/c (MN 21 Oct 1971 p26).

[Andrew Fellowes]

F2R gives Terry Shanahan/Blackwood Hodge in a BT23C July 11th 1971 as NC at Mondello Park Leinster Trophy Meeting.

Walter Kinnear and Nelson Todd were also NC in BT23C's and Lingard Goulding/Irish Racing Cars BT23C was a DNA.
http://www.formula2.net/F271_13.htm

Nelson Todd I assume was in BT23-1, Shanahan BT23C-11, Kinnear BT23C-16 so what was Goulding doing? and what was IRC doing?
Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I have just hit the same puzzle. At the July Leinster Trophy, Ted Shanahan is listed among the entry in the ex-Magee Lotus 35 but is listed in the report, on the grid and in the results in a Brabham BT23C. Brian Cullen had brought along his ex-Ivy BT23C (BT23C-11) for Lingard Goulding but didn't have a working engine so it's possible Shanahan had hired that and fitted the twin cam from his Lotus. Kinnear (BT23C-16) and Todd (BT23-1) were both present in their similar cars.

EDIT: Just noticed we have a gap for BT23C-11 after Cullen in early 1971 until Harold & Gerry McGarrity in 1973.

Ooops! I must pay attention, I see I have repeated what you more or less have already said, but it still leaves a question mark as to which car IRC had intended to use,

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Cullen had brought his own BT23C-11 but may have run it under the IRC banner as he was now driving for IRC. So the Goulding car was definitely BT23C-11. The question mark is over Shanahan's car. Lotus 35? Brabham BT18? Brabham BT23? Brabham BT23C?

[allenbrown]

Bobby Howlings' car at Croft 3 Apr 1972 was indeed the ex-Pickering car. So Brabham BT23C/10. MN 6 Apr 1972 p9