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Old 11 Jan 2018, 01:42 (Ref:3791879)   #76
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Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
Not anymore. That's why Porsche had to move the engine.
That was part of my thoughts for some of the aero differences, rear wing will be designed for the diffuser of each car. The massive tunnels of GTE cars seem to be much larger than anything hanging out the back of anything this side of a Super Trofeo car, and even those are still under the cars. Although the new Bentley is getting there it seems.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 04:59 (Ref:3791899)   #77
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The Corvette is still using a Gen IV small block while all the street cars are Gen V. I don't think Porsche has ever stopped using the 997 GT2 engine either.
The Gen IV and V blocks are almost identical. Most of the difference is down to what displacements are offered, but both are derived from the same starting point. The difference between the engine in the GTE Corvette and the road engines is about the same as it was when the engine was first downsized to 5.5L to meet GTE regs.

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It's not just a Corvette race car, it's a CALLAWAY Corvette designed with the same stylist that worked on the Sledgehammer, C7, and C12. That's why it has things like the C7 style bent rear wing that isn't used on any other GT car.
http://www.deutschmandesign.com/en/car/Callaway_GT3-R
It's still all about aero. Any device that didn't improve performance would not be left on a racecar unless the regulations required it.

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No, the Viper and 488 legitimately use almost entirely the same bodywork except for some bolt on devices and venting differences.
Those are only two examples. As I said before, these things are not universal.

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Not anymore. That's why Porsche had to move the engine.
No, still. GT3 still allows more in the front splitter and rear wing than GTE does, as well as more aero alterations to the general bodywork. Again, one piece(the rear diffuser in this case) does not automatically change the overall whole.

In point of fact, the diffusers allowed on GTE cars now are why I stuck to the splitter and wing when noting specific parts.

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One of the Risi engineers did think the GT3 would potentially be a bit quicker than the GTE, because for that specific car it probably does have a bit better downforce with the front fender louvers and vents. For Porsche, whose GT3 car is much cheaper, much more basic aerodynamically, presumably requires much less restriction to reach the performance targets and is engineered more for gentleman drivers, not a chance.
Again, one of the reasons I said these things are not universal among all manufacturers.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 11 Jan 2018 at 05:04.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 05:58 (Ref:3791906)   #78
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Theoretically you could run more aero on a GT3 car still, but you'd end up with a car with horrendous BoP consistency that could never pass anything and is super damage sensitive so it's not really desirable to go that extreme. Ideally you probably want a bit more top end than a GTE car even while lapping a couple seconds slower.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 12:18 (Ref:3791997)   #79
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Theoretically you could run more aero on a GT3 car still, but you'd end up with a car with horrendous BoP consistency that could never pass anything and is super damage sensitive so it's not really desirable to go that extreme. Ideally you probably want a bit more top end than a GTE car even while lapping a couple seconds slower.
Which I believe was a common problem complained about at Daytona. The GTD guys had better top end so the GTLMs had to late break/dive at the bus stop and Turn 1 to make their laptimes.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 13:57 (Ref:3792021)   #80
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At Daytona GTLM is about 4 seconds a lap faster than GTD cars. But that is all from the infield section and the bus stop chicane. The oval part they are at least the same. I wonder how much closer the GTD cars would be if they had the same tires as the GTLM cars. Instead of 1:47's. I bet it would be 1:45s. Which is where the BMW M8's are right now.

I am thinking we'll get a full season GTLM grid of 8 cars. With GTD being between 11-13. Hopefully for VIR and Lime Rock you'll get some guest entries to give those fields something near the mid 20's in size.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 17:26 (Ref:3792071)   #81
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GTE cars are more expensive, in every way, versus GT3 cars.

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Old 11 Jan 2018, 18:18 (Ref:3792078)   #82
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I'd like to think so, because if they do cost and perform similarly, then what's the point of two different classes? SRO/ACO rivalry/hubris?
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 20:59 (Ref:3792118)   #83
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But you haven't offered anything beyond you think. What are the "more developed" bits on each GT3 car? Is there a bend in the Callaway Vette wing tips for a GT3 specific rule or NOT bent based on GTE rules? And what specific benefit does it provide?

You've made claims with ZERO evidence to back them up. Claims without evidence is hot air and conjecture not fact.
I am not, and have not, asserted that any car from either class "more developed" than the other. I have been asserting that GT3 is more OPEN -that it ALLOWS more to be done- than GTE(and that this in turn leads to some of the crazy pricetags on some GT3 cars like the Ferrari and McLaren). And you need only look at the concepts and rules to know that.

There's no doubt that under these rules GT3 cars WOULD be more developed than GTE if the BoP wasn't present, of course, but the entirety of GT3 was built around having that balance so that's a moot point.
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Old 11 Jan 2018, 21:07 (Ref:3792123)   #84
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GTE cars are more expensive, in every way, versus GT3 cars.

-mike
I've not doubt GTE programs are more expensive to run, being factory-backed, but this is the first time I've seen anyone connected to racing infer that this may go for the actual cost of the cars(I find that the GTE manufacturers play that close to the chest, unsurprisingly). Could you provide some numbers for the sake of helping clear it up, or are you forbidden by contracts from doing so?
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 06:20 (Ref:3792206)   #85
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A Gt3 car is much cheaper than a Gte in purchase price. Gte you start around 700k and can get to a million plus.

The reason the Ferrari Gt3 is so pricey, is because it's pretty much the Gte car. Most of this thread has things very backwards. Gt3 is closer to street car in every fashion, and modifications are of a much cheaper type than Gte
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 12:53 (Ref:3792257)   #86
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A Gt3 car is much cheaper than a Gte in purchase price. Gte you start around 700k and can get to a million plus.
No offense, but given how few GTEs are actually "sold" to teams, I'd much prefer to hear this from someone I know is on the inside. The GTE manufacturers keep this stuff VERY close to the chest and most of the people who know have a vested interest in keeping such information muddy, so without knowledge of who I'm talking to and what they can reasonably be expected to know(or what source you're using for that info so I can know if the source can be trusted), I can't trust the statement.

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The reason the Ferrari Gt3 is so pricey, is because it's pretty much the Gte car.
That doesn't explain the McLaren, or the Mercedes, both of which are reportedly(both have publicized pricetags but I've been told both are lowballed by a severe amount) well over the LMP2 cost cap in purchase price(which is the primary point of the price matter - whether GTE is more expensive or not is frankly a side matter we're trying to sort out to help adjust factors/illustrate the reasoning of my earlier post regarding the merging of the classes). Neither have a GTE equivalent to affect matters.

[quote]Most of this thread has things very backwards. Gt3 is closer to street car in every fashion,

Okay, this is just plain flat out false. NEITHER is any "closer" to the street car than the other. Both are highly tuned and heavily modified racecars that have little in common beyond their look.

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and modifications are of a much cheaper type than Gte
That depends entirely on the individual manufacturer. Some are less crazily modified than the GTE version(PORSCHE), but many look at the rulebook and go absolutely nuts - for the most extreme example I can recall in my presently tired state(seriously, I REALLY should just be going to bed and posting this when I wake up), the BMW Z4 barely had anything in common with the road car.

The simple reality is that, by design, the GT3 rulebook is VERY loose and manufacturers are very keen to take advantage of that. Some more than others.
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 13:46 (Ref:3792270)   #87
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No offense, but given how few GTEs are actually "sold" to teams, I'd much prefer to hear this from someone I know is on the inside. The GTE manufacturers keep this stuff VERY close to the chest and most of the people who know have a vested interest in keeping such information muddy, so without knowledge of who I'm talking to and what they can reasonably be expected to know(or what source you're using for that info so I can know if the source can be trusted), I can't trust the statement.
As if you were talking in a mirror....
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 15:15 (Ref:3792288)   #88
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I go away for several months and the first page of the first thread I open, Formula Fox is arguing some questionable theory and telling pro racers they don't know their business. I guess I came back too soon.

(J/k, Mr. Fox ... we have had some interesting discussions ... but i guess just as leopards don't change their spots .... )

#SomeThingsDontChange
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 20:10 (Ref:3792343)   #89
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I go away for several months and the first page of the first thread I open, Formula Fox is arguing some questionable theory and telling pro racers they don't know their business. I guess I came back too soon.

(J/k, Mr. Fox ... we have had some interesting discussions ... but i guess just as leopards don't change their spots .... )
I haven't told any pro racer(that I know of) his business. I asked the one person I know is a pro racer for more information.

The thing is, it's VERY important I get this straightened out one way or another. It's a side detail, but it's actually a very big deal - if my information is wrong(very possible for the exact reasons I've stated - manufacturers keeping things close to the chest mudding things up means even my very reliable sources may have been fooled), then the major point of my earlier wall of text regarding GT Convergence changes in a small but significant way; GTE goes from having only one thing to offer to having nothing to offer, meaning it should be wiped out.

Everything that's been said so far is showing exactly WHY this issue is so muddy as well. Even if I've got my class expenses wrong, several people here really are unaware of just how insane some GT3 cars actually are.

(as a funny side note, the McLarens are actually one of the closest designs to their original roadgoing version due to how the roadcar was built, but it's one of the first cited by most as example of how different GT3 cars can be from their street car counterpart)
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Old 12 Jan 2018, 23:02 (Ref:3792382)   #90
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The thing is, it's VERY important I get this straightened out one way or another.
No it isn’t. This is an internet discussion forum. An approach where it is just interesting, rather being VERY important would help the discussion a lot.

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Old 13 Jan 2018, 02:28 (Ref:3792399)   #91
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No it isn’t. This is an internet discussion forum. An approach where it is just interesting, rather being VERY important would help the discussion a lot.

Relatively speaking, it is VERY important. Better?
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Old 13 Jan 2018, 04:51 (Ref:3792408)   #92
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Relatively speaking, it is VERY important. Better?
Found a way to argue even that, huh?
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Old 13 Jan 2018, 23:11 (Ref:3792554)   #93
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Relatively speaking, it is VERY important. Better?
If it is VERY important, maybe asking random people on the internet, who you don't know, isn't the best way to do research.

No need to get snippy when you aren't getting the responses you desire. Maybe you can contact teams who run the cars it the manufacturers who sell them if you need budget numbers.
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 00:07 (Ref:3792564)   #94
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If it is VERY important, maybe asking random people on the internet, who you don't know, isn't the best way to do research.

No need to get snippy when you aren't getting the responses you desire. Maybe you can contact teams who run the cars it the manufacturers who sell them if you need budget numbers.
No anger here.

The whole thing going on now is that all this information I've posted DOES come from teams involved in the matter, but I'm well aware that they oftentimes have reason to be...less than honest in their replies, and they REALLY don't like giving out specific numbers to just anyone. So when someone else whom I know is connected, like Mike Hedlund, makes comments that disagree with what I've been told, it would be wise of me to pursue to see who's told them what and see what I can discern from it rather than to dismiss it.

And since my only ever contact with the individual in question is through this forum...
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 00:32 (Ref:3792565)   #95
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The latest posts in this thread are the main reason why I've not participated or even read much in these forums anymore.
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 00:48 (Ref:3792575)   #96
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The latest posts in this thread are the main reason why I've not participated or even read much in these forums anymore.
Because the falcons suck? Oh wait wrong thread. ROFL
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 00:58 (Ref:3792578)   #97
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Because the falcons suck? Oh wait wrong thread. ROFL
Ha! That would keep me from that thread but seriously, the Clowns suck and I'd rather not us take away from the regularly scheduled contests and griping here!
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 01:02 (Ref:3792579)   #98
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Because the falcons suck? Oh wait wrong thread. ROFL
Dan Quinn is gene chizik, Kyle shanahan is Gus malzahn and Finkel is einhorn. Screw this.
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 01:03 (Ref:3792580)   #99
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Ha! That would keep me from that thread but seriously, the Clowns suck and I'd rather not us take away from the regularly scheduled contests and griping here!
That might be the smartest thing said on this page!
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Old 14 Jan 2018, 01:08 (Ref:3792582)   #100
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Dan Quinn is gene chizik, Kyle shanahan is Gus malzahn and Finkel is einhorn. Screw this.
No, that's the smartest thing said here so far

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