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Old 9 Jun 2018, 06:56 (Ref:3827785)   #1
Greg Cozier
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Are there any restrictions on liquor livery?

In UK on historic race cars are there any restrictions on the advertisement of alcoholic beverages?
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 05:10 (Ref:3828006)   #2
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I’ll try and check more thoroughly when back home, but my initial thoughts are that period / historically correct advertising is allowed for ciggies, booze etc.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 06:29 (Ref:3828013)   #3
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Thanks Mike.

There seems to be lots of mis-information about.

I've read that it is OK as long as there is no monetary gain (as in no actual sponsorship).

Steve Perez carries Amigos livery on his Stratos for historic rallies in UK and EU.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 06:35 (Ref:3828014)   #4
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Mike, dont you think the appendix k states about this? I remember reading something meaning that you have to check with your local responsible, MSA and so, if it complies with actual domestic rules.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 08:02 (Ref:3828026)   #5
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I do not believe that there are any restrictions in the UK against alcohol advertising in motor sport. Current F1 cars carry sponsorship decals at the British GP, and several cars on the BTCC package carry similar decals.


I cannot see why historics should be treated differently in the UK.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 08:41 (Ref:3828035)   #6
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Mike, dont you think the appendix k states about this? I remember reading something meaning that you have to check with your local responsible, MSA and so, if it complies with actual domestic rules.
Yes, it’s the decision of individual country’s governing bodies. Pretty sure U.K. MSA allow if historically correct, and of course livery has to be detailed in HTP papers now... I will read up when home, or if anyone else has time- should be in The Blue Book?
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 09:00 (Ref:3828037)   #7
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Had a look at the blue book, and the only restriction for motor sport appears to apply to tobacco decals/advertising. However, it does state that if evidence is provided that cars ran in period with tobacco related advertising, they are still permitted.


Hence we still see the Marlboro, Camel, Players, etc. cars still being run at events in the UK.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 12:53 (Ref:3828064)   #8
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Thanks Mike.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 14:18 (Ref:3828091)   #9
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Hence we still see the Marlboro, Camel, Players, etc. cars still being run at events in the UK.
Interestingly, in France the F3 Classic competitors have had to change the liveries of their cars, even if they carried cigarette advertising in period. Hence, Gitanes became Titanes and Ducados became Docados.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 14:44 (Ref:3828101)   #10
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And Bas……… something became Basto? with a question mark.
Alan are you sure about authentic cars like Matra, Ligier, Lola and some Porsches too? I'm not sure it was the case during last tour auto but have to check.
F3 Classic have to show the right example, its a leader grid.
Greg's question was about liquor, then in this matter in France you should add "avec modération" and could keep the livery.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 14:44 (Ref:3828102)   #11
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Interestingly, in France the F3 Classic competitors have had to change the liveries of their cars, even if they carried cigarette advertising in period. Hence, Gitanes became Titanes and Ducados became Docados.

But haven't we seen the old F1 cars and sports racers in their original liveries at Le Mans. I'm sure that I recall seeing the Big Cats in their Silk Cut colours in last couple of years.
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Old 10 Jun 2018, 15:38 (Ref:3828110)   #12
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And Bas……… something became Basto? with a question mark.
Alan are you sure about authentic cars like Matra, Ligier, Lola and some Porsches too? I'm not sure it was the case during last tour auto but have to check.
F3 Classic have to show the right example, its a leader grid.
Greg's question was about liquor, then in this matter in France you should add "avec modération" and could keep the livery.
I guess the UK equivalent is "Please drink responsibly" I was just making the point that individual ASNs seem to be able to make their own rules. Sponsorship on racing cars has a bit of a notorious history in the UK. The fact that Surtees was sponsored by Durex (a condom manufacturer) was cited as a reason not to broadcast motor racing on TV in the UK in the mid-seventies.
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Old 11 Jun 2018, 10:58 (Ref:3828352)   #13
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I guess the UK equivalent is "Please drink responsibly" I was just making the point that individual ASNs seem to be able to make their own rules. Sponsorship on racing cars has a bit of a notorious history in the UK. The fact that Surtees was sponsored by Durex (a condom manufacturer) was cited as a reason not to broadcast motor racing on TV in the UK in the mid-seventies.
Restrictions on advertising are decided by each country (as with all "EU laws", the EU don't impose the laws it is each country that does so in the way they desire).

There was a time when some EU countries allowed fagvertising but others didn't hence different schemes at different European races. Of course those events were televised, so the relevant law would presumably have related to TV advertising.

Given that historic races aren't usually televised they wouldn't fall under the same laws but ASNs might decide to impose such rules across the board (which as with most FIA stuff would be of questionable legality but it's basically a private club so they can pretty much do whatever they want).

Alcohol adverts are presumably covered by similar regulations these days, with similar local variations, but the usual principle with old cars is that if they ran a livery in period it is acceptable to run it now - however Germany apparently insists on the fagfree version on F1 cars, so again it is a local issue...

I guess the answer to the original question is you need to check with the local ASN of each country you intend to race in... assuming it is an FIA event, otherwise ask the organisers.
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Old 12 Jun 2018, 06:53 (Ref:3828578)   #14
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The fact that Surtees was sponsored by Durex (a condom manufacturer) was cited as a reason not to broadcast motor racing on TV in the UK in the mid-seventies.
Hehehe this reminded me of their poster campaign at the time. Outside my office in Euston Rd was a huge poster adorned with a pic of the Durex liveried F1 car with the print underneath proclaiming "The small family car"
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Old 13 Jun 2018, 04:28 (Ref:3828780)   #15
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Cheese

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Outside my office in Euston Rd was a huge poster adorned with a pic of the liveried F1 car with the print underneath proclaiming "The small family car"

A measure against condoms, hard…… to believe!
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Old 13 Jun 2018, 07:15 (Ref:3828799)   #16
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I spat my cornflakes out one morning a few years ago when the front cover of my new Motor Sport featured a JPS liveried Lotus- but with the sponsor's name photoshopped out. Thankfully, sanity has now prevailed, and period livery is featured . Does the Bin Laden sponsorship still appear on historic F1 Williams ? I must check at Silverstone next month ...
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 18:44 (Ref:3829730)   #17
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Ah, I've posted this reply in the tea break forum because I couldn't remember where I'd seen the question. Sorry to duplicate but here goes:

The MSA has published the following in its e-magazine today:

"There have been several recent instances of vehicles bring presented for inspection or scrutineering with tobacco related advertising. Please remember that tobacco related advertising is prohibited on all competing vehicles. This also extends to support vehicles and the competitor’s equipment, such as overalls and helmet. Please see regulation H28.1.6. The only exception to this ruling is if the specific vehicle can be proven (using its chassis number) to have used the particular livery in period. In such cases it is permitted to continue using the livery, providing that the logos are the original size and colours. Therefore, it is not acceptable to replicate a tobacco related livery on a vehicle that did not originally display that livery."



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Old 15 Jun 2018, 19:12 (Ref:3829743)   #18
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Relating to Max's post above, but that is so stupid - not Max's comments but the missive from the MSA.


What difference does it make whether it is the original, or a replica or a continuation car. Of course, that doesn't mean that Lotus can wheel out a fleet of replicas, but if one of the original chassis needs to be replaced, what possible harm is there in creating a replacement?


At the end of the day, Joe Public wouldn't know or even care that the car roaring about on display was chassis number X or Y, and they are certainly not going to immediately start smoking because it's a replica car.


The MSA have far more important things that they could be doing, like investing in grass root racing and promoting more "clubbie" events.
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Old 15 Jun 2018, 19:28 (Ref:3829748)   #19
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The issue comes down to not wanting to be prosecuted for enabling or allowing tobacco advertising. By having such a strict criteria around the continued use of period advertising means that, eventually, all tobacco advertising will be consigned to the museum.

The situation could have been a lot worse if the period advertising had to be removed.
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Old 16 Jun 2018, 07:44 (Ref:3829836)   #20
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I found that advertising the Brewery and not a specific alcoholic drink was fine, and they paid all my entry fees Click image for larger version

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