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Old 7 Dec 2016, 12:55 (Ref:3694495)   #176
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
For a "simulator bot" who is also the 2014 WEC champion and established front running Toyota LMP1 factory driver, I think he is in with a shout at least
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 13:46 (Ref:3694510)   #177
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no.......next years cars will be high down-force monsters......your list is the "boy" list for sure, they have talent for sure, but are still serving their apprenticeships IMHO.......they will be exposed in 2017 I am quite sure
Personally I doubt very much that Verstappen will do anything other than continue to impress next season. When you have that level of innate ability, the World (DC) is his oyster......

Montoya? You have to be kidding.

Davidson? Nice idea but highly unlikely IMO. He'd need to have serious F1 'stars in his eyes' to leave the WEC.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 13:49 (Ref:3694513)   #178
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Also, Ant is 37, so he'd be a very short-term investment for Mercedes. I think we're all getting a little carried away with wishful thinking.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 13:55 (Ref:3694520)   #179
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Also, Ant is 37, so he'd be a very short-term investment for Mercedes. I think we're all getting a little carried away with wishful thinking.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 14:49 (Ref:3694533)   #180
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I watch every F1 practice session and race.In 2 years I have seen little evidence that Werlhein is potentially at the level of Bottas or Perez let alone Rosberg.Ocon showed him up and Harianto was his equal.Mercedes had high hopes for him but they appear to be misplaced.Besides a solid job at Austria this year can anyone point me to any result that shows he might be up to this.His dummy spit when he refused to turn his power unit off on instructions from his team in a practice session a few races ago was not a sign I would be looking for either.
I am not saying you are wrong. In fact, I agree with a lot of what you say. I would say he just about had the upper hand on his teammates generally, but he certainly has not dominated them at all.

I think we can tell that Mercedes are not averse to "dummy Spits" from their drivers from time-to-time, just as long as the results are there!

He has already worked a great deal with Mercedes on tests and presumably in the simulator as well. Mercedes should know by now what they would be getting if they were to employ him. If they don't take him on, then what on earth is the point in having a young driver program at all?
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 15:06 (Ref:3694537)   #181
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If they don't take him on, then what on earth is the point in having a young driver program at all?
Couldn't agree more, and have been saying so all over this forum. If Wehrlein were a complete rookie, I could understand Mercedes wanting him to have a season of F1 under his belt, but he's done that at Manor. He's not going to learn exponentially more at Sauber or Williams or Force India than he would do being placed alongside Hamilton at Mercedes. If he's not ready now, he never will be, and if that's the case, Mercedes should be honest and drop him.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 15:17 (Ref:3694540)   #182
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nah, going to have to disagree. i think the guys who are simulator bots will be caught with their pants down, but the ones with genuine superhuman car control abilities, the ones who can get in any car and get a good time out of it, they'll do well.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 15:46 (Ref:3694548)   #183
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He has already worked a great deal with Mercedes on tests and presumably in the simulator as well. Mercedes should know by now what they would be getting if they were to employ him. If they don't take him on, then what on earth is the point in having a young driver program at all?
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If he's not ready now, he never will be, and if that's the case, Mercedes should be honest and drop him.
Red Bull cleary has a much better setup with respect to having Toro Roso as their junior team. TR is generally a solid mid-field team with them maybe occasionally punching above their weight (was it 2015 when they occasionally challenged RBR?) While Manor struggles at the rear. My point is that Mercedes (frankly most everyone) has a poor setup for F1 junior driver development.

This likely gives RBR a better understanding of the success rate of moving someone up. But even in what is the best scenario (RBR + TR) you have situations such as Kvyat who just didn't get it done after being promoted. So its not like its a math problem with a predictable outcome. Even doing it right can result in a bad outcome.

All of this is a long winded way to say the same as above... What is the point of having a junior program if you don't promote junior drivers? Let's say that Mercedes already had a top level driver and junior driver on the squad and the top level driver left. Yes, they should seek another top level driver as replacement vs. having two junior drivers in the top car. But in this scenario, they arguably have the best driver of the field. So regarding a junior driver promotion, if not now, then when? Otherwise, stop trying to develop junior drivers and just spend the money to cherry pick the best that they can afford.

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Old 7 Dec 2016, 16:26 (Ref:3694556)   #184
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2 things to say about the RBR young driver program:-

RBR struck gold with Ricciardo and Verstappen.
Formula E is full of failed Red Bull protegees.

But unless you give them a chance, you will never know if they are good enough.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 17:09 (Ref:3694559)   #185
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just speculating, but the Merc board (and their advertising department) are probably feeling a bit screwed at the moment because they have lost a big part of their marketing plans for 2017 and are perhaps now prefer to replace Nico with someone who has a similar level of marketing reach.

if you are spending 300mil plus a year and employing (i think) over 1200 people, then the need need to have two highly recognizable drivers becomes more important then honouring the junior program.

also i would say their junior program has operated under the path of having an available driver for 2018 and beyond...they just may feel their program hasnt come to fruition yet.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 20:01 (Ref:3694601)   #186
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just speculating, but the Merc board (and their advertising department) are probably feeling a bit screwed at the moment because they have lost a big part of their marketing plans for 2017 and are perhaps now prefer to replace Nico with someone who has a similar level of marketing reach.

if you are spending 300mil plus a year and employing (i think) over 1200 people, then the need need to have two highly recognizable drivers becomes more important then honouring the junior program.

also i would say their junior program has operated under the path of having an available driver for 2018 and beyond...they just may feel their program hasnt come to fruition yet.
All good points. I think at times we (fans) confuse the optimal path for the racing team and can loose track of the goals of those who pay the bills.

To follow that thinking... If you want to look at this from a marketing perspective, then you want to bring in someone new who you can (hopefully) to be part of the brand for more than just a year or two. So (IMHO), that somewhat excludes someone like Button. While on one hand I expect someone like Button would be a smart fit (especially on the marketing side), I just expect he is at the end of his career and would not be a good long term face for Mercedes. To a degree, I suspect the same might be said about Alonso (how much longer do we really expect him to drive?) An argument for a new driver, is that if they have confidence in that person (i.e. they may be around for more than a year or two) they could also be the new face to start with now.

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Old 7 Dec 2016, 20:18 (Ref:3694607)   #187
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long term can be developed which would be why i suspect their (marketing) needs are more immediate/a proper replacement for a WDC.

Button i think would be great in this respect. better then Alonso even.

i would have to look back, but i somewhat recall that when Merc hired Schumi a large part of his contract was actually about a marketing campaign for road cars and less about his on track performance...so Button would fit that bill.

the more i think about it the more i think just how crazy and unprecedented it is that Nico left...the suits in Stuttgart must have lost their minds when they found out.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 20:26 (Ref:3694608)   #188
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It would be really interesting to see Button paired up with Hamilton again. Jenson is the only driver, I believe, that has actually out-scored (and out-podiumed) Hamilton (over the 3 years at McLaren) whilst a team-mate, and if his motivation was re-ignited by driving a Mercedes, then I think that after an initial bedding-in period he would be able to hold his own again.

I don't think that it will happen, but it would be fun if it did.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 21:23 (Ref:3694624)   #189
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I'm inclined to agree, I think the same will be the case for VanDoorne at McLaren, I watched a superformula race recently, he was on his backside and getting trounced by the locals

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Massa
Button
Davidson
Montoya
I don't think those are good options. Davidson would be Luca Badoer 2.0 and I'm not sure JPM would be much better. Massa was falling away from Bottas this past season and Button, from his attitude at the end of the season, seems done with F1.

If I was Mercedes, I'd explore the 'boy' options of Sainz, Bottas and Wherlein.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 21:27 (Ref:3694625)   #190
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 21:32 (Ref:3694627)   #191
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 22:46 (Ref:3694637)   #192
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VanDoorne at McLaren, I watched a superformula race recently, he was on his backside and getting trounced by the locals
No offense meant, but that just shows an ignorance of Super Formula.
Context is required before making daft statements.

Honda engines are not the ones to have.
In 2016, only two Honda drivers won a race, with only one of those, Vandoorne, winning two races.
There was a similar situation in 2015 season, where only one Honda driver won a race (incidentally it was the 'other' Honda driver who also won this year).
In Japanese open-wheel racing, Toyota is where the action is.
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Old 7 Dec 2016, 23:32 (Ref:3694646)   #193
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 01:10 (Ref:3694658)   #194
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I think it's going to be Alain Prost, Keke Rosberg or the shade of the late Jim Clark.

About as realistic as other names being thrown around.

If no established stars are available, and I don't reckon they are, it'll be Wehrlein.
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 01:27 (Ref:3694659)   #195
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I think it's going to be Alain Prost, Keke Rosberg or the shade of the late Jim Clark.

About as realistic as other names being thrown around.

If no established stars are available, and I don't reckon they are, it'll be Wehrlein.
Is Keke available?
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 07:53 (Ref:3694685)   #196
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2 things to say about the RBR young driver program:-

RBR struck gold with Ricciardo and Verstappen.
Formula E is full of failed Red Bull protegees.

But unless you give them a chance, you will never know if they are good enough.
The program did pretty well to bring up Vettel and Sainz too.
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 09:40 (Ref:3694719)   #197
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they didn't bring up verstappen in fairness, not like the rest. they won a bidding war with mercedes for him.

imagine if merc had won...
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 10:24 (Ref:3694736)   #198
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If I was looking for a youngster, I'd have great difficulty ignoring Rosenqvist, he looks like the real deal to me.
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 12:46 (Ref:3694785)   #199
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Is Keke available?


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Old 8 Dec 2016, 14:12 (Ref:3694812)   #200
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If I was looking for a youngster, I'd have great difficulty ignoring Rosenqvist, he looks like the real deal to me.
I agree he's a fairly impressive driver, and I''m sad he never really got a chance.
However, he is not THAT young anymore, is he?
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