[Official] Russian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 10

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Adam43

You don’t need the radio to decide if the rule was broken and to dish out the race penalty.

It is useful when deciding if you put the points on the licence. Perhaps they should have waited to announce the points until later...

I agree with your second sentiment....my point is though, surely before dishing out a punishment they should look at all the available evidence. It’s clear in this case they didn’t

[Richard C]

Regarding the super license penalty points. A few quick questions and some follow up regarding Lewis

* Is there a resource online that shows the current situation with respect to penalty points?
* What is the history of the points Lewis already has?
* When was the last time someone had to sit out a race due to accruing enough points?

I am sure this will be push back by a few here, but I think the race penalty for sure was appropriate and I probably the license penalty was appropriate as well (I don't have a good history of how bad infractions are when those are dealt out). Between this race and in Monza, IMHO, Lewis is not paying enough attention to what is going on at the event level. I think that because of both his extraordinary skill and his deep experience, he can generally just show up and get poll and win the race without putting in the extra homework that is expected of all drivers.

I am not saying he doesn't prep or it is easy, but I am saying he can prep much less and come out on top in a dog eat dog sport. Which is amazing, but runs the risk of things like this happening. While the time penalties are extremely frustrating for him and should (and have) cost him wins, in the end, it is not going to derail his title fight. So I am not sure if those are enough to get him to course correct.

One is a one-off (Monza), two (Russia) makes you wonder if it is a pattern. What if more are to come? It is my opinion that is why you can accumulate points on your license. To allow for patterns of non-ideal behavior build until there is ultimately a significant penalty. As you get penalty points, you don't incur anything until you reach the maximum. The idea is to track and punish a string of bad behavior.

If Lewis continues to be caught out by event level issues (light placement, etc.) and they are now saying they will not issue license points, then they are setting the precedent for it being harder to correct going forward. If something like this happens again, I don't seem them giving him penalty points. My memory seems to be they were given out all the time, but oh boy, if anyone gets close to the maximum, then they may start to hold off! That just removes the fear of it happening and lessens the penalty system.

Ideally Lewis will figure this out on his own. He did accept (or did he ) the issue at Monza. He clearly is not accepting blame for this recent issue. As he is saying the penalties are to clearly meant to disable him as the stewards dig for reasons to dish them out. Or at best, there was an infraction, but he should not face any penalty for it (does that logic make any sense?)

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

I don’t think your comments are unfair Richard. IIRC

2 Brazil 2019 Albon crash
2 yellow flag infringement Austria
2 Austria Albon crash
2 Monza pit entry

You probably have a point about the pre race notes, but others have fallen foul of it too....again notably Leclerc at Spa doing exactly the same thing as Hamilton but he escaped without a penalty of any sort never mind points on his licence

I suppose in the heat of the moment when you place so much trust in your team, you can fall foul of these situations, Hamilton certainly isn’t the only one, Max, Vettel, Grosjean have all been close to a race ban over the last 18-24 months but it doesn’t get the same level of attention

(Apart from Max having to go to naughty boys school)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

You probably have a point about the pre race notes, but others have fallen foul of it too....again notably Leclerc at Spa doing exactly the same thing as Hamilton but he escaped without a penalty of any sort never mind points on his licence

There does need to be consistency to prevent some being punished and others not. But that is a well tread topic here.

I DO expect EVERYONE to be paying more attention to race director notes for awhile.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Can I just say - honourable mention to Grosjean for the funniest incident of the week.

[chillibowl]

is it unreasonable to hold the accepted number 1, current champion, potentially all time great to a higher standard?

there are some who believe that the likes of Senna and Schumi, their on track behaviour and open contempt for the officials, convinced/taught the next generation of racing drivers that the rules also did not apply to them...so i do think there is some logic in having to come down harder on the top drivers.

handing out penalties to Grosjean for example will not have the same effect as penalties on LH.

*i say this as a LH fan*

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Can I just say - honourable mention to Grosjean for the funniest incident of the week.

haha right!

he did bang wheels but it really did look like he drove through the bollards on purpose.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is it unreasonable to hold the accepted number 1, current champion, potentially all time great to a higher standard?

there are some who believe that the likes of Senna and Schumi, their on track behaviour and open contempt for the officials, convinced/taught the next generation of racing drivers that the rules also did not apply to them...so i do think there is some logic in having to come down harder on the top drivers.

At the end of your first sentence I was thinking "no! that's unfair!".

At the end of your second sentence I was thinking "yes! that's a good point, I agree!"

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is it unreasonable to hold the accepted number 1, current champion, potentially all time great to a higher standard?

there are some who believe that the likes of Senna and Schumi, their on track behaviour and open contempt for the officials, convinced/taught the next generation of racing drivers that the rules also did not apply to them...so i do think there is some logic in having to come down harder on the top drivers.

handing out penalties to Grosjean for example will not have the same effect as penalties on LH.

*i say this as a LH fan*



haha right!

he did bang wheels but it really did look like he drove through the bollards on purpose.

Yes and no. I think max, Vettel, Charles summed it up nicely. Points should be given for dangerous driving not for stopping in the wrong place.

All this penalty does is teach kids to do their homework!!!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Points should be given for dangerous driving not for stopping in the wrong place.

Isn't stopping in the wrong place dangerous driving?

But I do understand they meant something else.

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Isn't stopping in the wrong place dangerous driving?

But I do understand they meant something else.

Richard

Ahhh but what’s the wrong place?

...there was no specific place to stop in the race directors notes despite Masi penalising hamilton for not stopping in the specific place that Masi didn’t put in the Race directors notes. You following

[Anyopenroad]

We have yet to discuss the actual biggest story of the weekend: the monster bee that attacked Bottas at the first corner and distracted him just enough to prevent the overtaking move on Hamilton from working.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

We have yet to discuss the actual biggest story of the weekend: the monster bee that attacked Bottas at the first corner and distracted him just enough to prevent the overtaking move on Hamilton from working.

Wonder if it was the same Bee that put Sainz into the wall? It’s a new one in the drivers book of excuses that one!

[Aysedasi]

Was it Bernie the Bee...... ?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Wonder if it was the same Bee that put Sainz into the wall? It’s a new one in the drivers book of excuses that one!

Nah, Sainz was obviously put in the wall by a badly calibrated micrometer. Engineers, huh?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Can I just say - honourable mention to Grosjean for the funniest incident of the week.

Indeed, seconded. Made for one of the less tedious parts of the race. And his explanation (if we are talking the T2 runoff incident) was gold, alluding himself to not having sufficient skill or words to that effect..

[S griffin]

Anyone else notice that the VSC has finally come out of hibernation for the first time this year?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Ahhh but what’s the wrong place?

...there was no specific place to stop in the race directors notes despite Masi penalising hamilton for not stopping in the specific place that Masi didn’t put in the Race directors notes. You following

You beat me to it, Mr Masi's notes said beyond the pit lane lights on the right hand side - to that effect anyway, Hamilton was in exactly the position Masi had specified. Maybe not the position Masi intended, but if he meant another position he should have specified it!

When has anyone previously received a time penalty for a sighting lap problem?

Would anyone other than Hamilton have received this penalty, LeClerc was not even penalized for the same action?

The Hamilton is criticized for not respecting the rotten work of the officials, I think he has cause.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Mr Masi's notes said

Is there a place online that people can see these notes? My experience has been that steward decisions are published but a slew of other documents (including clarifications to regulations, etc.) are never provided to the public.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Is there a place online that people can see these notes? My experience has been that steward decisions are published but a slew of other documents (including clarifications to regulations, etc.) are never provided to the public.

Richard

mark_l Post #95 this thread:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi..._version_3.pdf

19) Practice starts
19.1 Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race. Drivers must leave adequate room on their left for another driver to pass.

19.2 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

It doesn't specifically say you must leave the track and only that you have to move to the right hand side.

It seems like Massi has not been specific enough in the notes, unlike the notes for the previous round. Ron Meadows is an expert in reading the regulations to see what is not said.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

mark_l Post #95 this thread:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi..._version_3.pdf

19) Practice starts
19.1 Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race. Drivers must leave adequate room on their left for another driver to pass.

19.2 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit
is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

It doesn't specifically say you must leave the track and only that you have to move to the right hand side.

It seems like Massi has not been specific enough in the notes, unlike the notes for the previous round. Ron Meadows is an expert in reading the regulations to see what is not said.

which is somewhat ironic given Leclerc was pinged for the same thing at Spa, but escaped penalty.....youd have thought they would have tightened up the notes

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

mark_l Post #95 this thread:

Thanks for the link. I really don't think I can comment deeply on how clear (or not) the instructions were. I assume the team argued their point with the stewards before the penalty was handed out. If it is actually unclear, then Mercedes should be raising a stink now (which as best as I can tell they are not). Or maybe the counter argument is that if the instructions were unclear the team had ample time to clarify prior to Sunday morning. Either way, it's done. Hopefully everyone treats it as a opportunity to improve.

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Thanks for the link. I really don't think I can comment deeply on how clear (or not) the instructions were. I assume the team argued their point with the stewards before the penalty was handed out. If it is actually unclear, then Mercedes should be raising a stink now (which as best as I can tell they are not). Or maybe the counter argument is that if the instructions were unclear the team had ample time to clarify prior to Sunday morning. Either way, it's done. Hopefully everyone treats it as a opportunity to improve.

Richard

i think the reason they arent raising a stink, is simply because it is done. they cant take back a 10 second penalty.

I suspect if the penalty was awarded post race, mercedes would probably be appealing it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i think the reason they arent raising a stink, is simply because it is done. they cant take back a 10 second penalty.

I suspect if the penalty was awarded post race, mercedes would probably be appealing it.

That may be true. But making a stink now is showing feedback for next time. And maybe that is done behind the scenes, but I fully believe that most teams operate in the open via the press in situations like this (when messages need to be sent).

Lewis' complaints for example. He can't undo what was done. But he is complaining (right or wrong). And I think other drivers have complained as well (I think on the drivers penalty points topic).

Richard

[Anyopenroad]

Anyway, back to the bee...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Anyone else notice that the VSC has finally come out of hibernation for the first time this year?

Used well I thought.