Stockhatch Future

[HrRACING]

There isnt much time before the BRDA reviews the classes and make any changes they see fit.

If you have any view on the way stockhatch within the BRDA should go then please email Andy Stevens asap.

All the people that want anything changed have to act on this now - or nothing will happen.

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by HrRACING

There isnt much time before the BRDA reviews the classes and make any changes they see fit.

If you have any view on the way stockhatch within the BRDA should go then please email Andy Stevens asap.

All the people that want anything changed have to act on this now - or nothing will happen.

To be honest as we all know it Works, all we need is to phase out certain models over periods of time; If you keep up the class image you make it more attractive to outsiders.

Alot of the guys out there have the cars properly presented on the day, washed and any bodywork repaired and their dedication and pride in the sport shows. But there is those that constantly turn upto events with the car litterally looking like it has come out of a field after being joyrided.

As Michael Bracken said at the IRXC Open Forum, its very hard to get TV airtime if one of the biggest classes in both championships is poorly presented which is why Supercar (the best presented class) gets so much airtime.

Stockhatch has done alot in a short time but it still has alot of untapped potential.

Bottom Line:

Keep it as it is, enforce all driving standards and outlaw certain older models to keep the championship both Modern and appealing to outsiders.

[HrRACING]

The oldest model in the class though is the 205!?!

[Matti Alamaki]

Originally Posted by HrRACING

The oldest model in the class though is the 205!?!

Exactly, time to move on from the 205'S. Allthough that won't change if they leave weights as they are. If I was an outsider I definitely wouldn't be building a POLO, LUPO, SAXO, 106, ROVER 214. They are penalised through excessive ballast. The 205 is still the way to go, power to weight...

Newer models would make the class more appealing, just look at SaxMax. Stock Hatch full of 205's is beginnig to look a bit tired...

[HrRACING]

But you have to find a balance to be able to keep the current cars, and allow lots more in!

If you outrule the 205 then people will just walk away. Given time to change people will move into something new!

[daz2202]

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. S/H is certainly not broke. Full entries everytime.

Over a period of time cars will change, as our friend the 205 will slowly dissapear as they are running out and there are 106's, saxo's, golf's, lupo's all over the place just waiting to run out of MOT.

Still there are also many excellent looking and running 205's. I think peugeot built the 205 gti with racing in the back of there minds.

LEAVE S/H THE WAY IT IS.

[StockHatch782]

I can see the point that the 205 looks a bit long in the tooth now, and that more modern cars would present a somewhat higher class image, but there are two problems with this.

The first is that the newer cars, for most Stock Hatch drivers, can be prohibitively expensive. I'm not going to make myself look like a fool by quoting wildly inflated or just plain wrong figures for build costs, but needless to say the 205 is still one of the cheapest cars out there for this class. The Saxo/106, Lupo etc. are all still considerably more expensive to build or buy than the 205. I agree that as the prices of these cars come down, more people will move to racing them, but this only happens with age, so we'll just have to wait!

The second reason is that a 'high class' rallycross format, although perhaps presenting a better image, is discouraging for those wondering whether they could afford to have a go. Again, I understand that battered old wagons put people off starting, and these should not be allowed to race (especially as they're the most likely to drive into you!), but people looking at a series with a wide variety of cars including the cheaper 205 etc. will be more easily persuaded to have a go than if they think they have to spend ten grand on a Saxo (for example!).

I didn't really mean to go on for so long, but I think it's important to remember that this is, forst and foremost, a BUDGET formula, and to move away from this would be at the risk of alienating potential new drivers, who are the lifeblood of our sport.

[bigted]

I think, for what its worth we need to look at more than "new shapes" we need to be embracing the developments of the road. We need to look at the "Darkside" and the "Green side".

[Upside Down Bug]

Hi guys

Just to let you know, whilst I will watch the comments on this forum, the BRDA are consulting in a more formal way this year, and therefore, I will happily respond to any club members comments on the similar thread which is on the BRDA website.

UDB

[silver bullet]

I agree with the "If it 'aint broke don't fix it" theory. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Stockhatch as it is. There is noway any model should be banned. Much as it pains me to say it, the 205 is the backbone of the class ..... and any move to outlaw them and the older cars (mkII Fiestas, Novas, etc) would be an absolute disaster.

Encouraging newer models is a good idea. One way to do it may be, at the end of next season say, any cars that went out of production before 1990 would not be eligible for the BRDA championship but would be OK for the BTRDA. That would mean anyone wanting to do the BRDA rounds would have to invest in something more modern but the older cars would still have a place to play.

If the BRDA were to bring in a new Super Stockhatch class. It would be a good idea if the regs were similar to Stockhatch 2000. That would mean more choice of meetings to race at, and it might encourage more people to take the plunge and build one.

The main thing to look at is why are there so many Stockhatches in garage's that have not been on the track in the last 12-24 months. It might be an idea to contact everybody who was racing in 2004/5, but did not venture out in 2006 and see what could be done to get them to come back.

Originally Posted by rxie

As Michael Bracken said at the IRXC Open Forum, its very hard to get TV airtime if one of the biggest classes in both championships is poorly presented which is why Supercar (the best presented class) gets so much airtime.

I have a problem with this. Not everyone who races Stockhatches can afford to re panel their cars after every meeting, we do not have the budgets of the Supercars. Having said that, most of the regular Stockhatch 'A' finalists have immaculately turned out cars at every meeting. You can't say Lynchy, Ash, Julian, Si, and several others turn up with their cars looking like sheds. And as it's only ever the 'A' final that is shown Mr Brackens argument falls down a little, especially as some of the Supercars are looking a little rough round the edges by the end of a meeting. I mean, did you see the state of GT's 307 by the superfinal


When I think about it there are loads of well turned out Stockhatches right through the class. Gone are the days when cars are turning up still covered in mud from the last meeting.

[chris cake]

The back bone of any Rallycross meeting in this country is Stockhatch !!! Like it or not if we didnt have them we couldnt hold meeting !!!!!
Ok if the Tv fund is staggered in the British that ok !
I cant comment on how the British works out the tv time but i would of thought 1 min something wasnt the fare share!!!

Stock hatch or the next updated budget class will all ways be the back bone and a starter for 99% of drivers and with out them Rallycross will die!!!
In this country .

[HrRACING]

Originally Posted by chris cake

The back bone of any Rallycross meeting in this country is Stockhatch !!! Like it or not if we didnt have them we couldnt hold meeting !!!!!
Ok if the Tv fund is staggered in the British that ok !
I cant comment on how the British works out the tv time but i would of thought 1 min something wasnt the fare share!!!

Stock hatch or the next updated budget class will all ways be the back bone and a starter for 99% of drivers and with out them Rallycross will die!!!
In this country .

Agreed. There just has to be a way of introducing new cars into the current stockhatch class without loosing the old ones.

[jukesy]

I agree with a lot of what everyone say,s the 205 is looking a bit dated and there is a few slighty rough round the egde car,s , but the bulk of of cars are very good nick cosidering what there are put through . People put what time and money they can afford into them as we all no rallycross aint cheap and saxo,s and 106,s are creeping in all the time and i,m sure eveolution will take care of the 205

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by Silver Bullet

I have a problem with this. Not everyone who races Stockhatches can afford to re panel their cars after every meeting, we do not have the budgets of the Supercars. Having said that, most of the regular Stockhatch 'A' finalists have immaculately turned out cars at every meeting. You can't say Lynchy, Ash, Julian, Si, and several others turn up with their cars looking like sheds. And as it's only ever the 'A' final that is shown Mr Brackens argument falls down a little, especially as some of the Supercars are looking a little rough round the edges by the end of a meeting. I mean, did you see the state of GT's 307 by the superfinal

I think what Michael was trying to say was that if the classes were more presentable they would be able to show more racing.. However there are a select few letting the class down; Its not even replacing panels just try get em straight and wash the car, as i said there is a few cars out there that look like they never seen a garden hose or a power washer in their life...

Originally Posted by HrRACING

Agreed. There just has to be a way of introducing new cars into the current stockhatch class without loosing the old ones.

The simplest way is not too different to the way the Junior Class in ireland is phasing out mini's, altho the circumstances are slightly different. You cant just over night ban cars outright, give it 2 years where you can run select types of car but after this models xyz must be retired from the championship.

I mean like going from a 205 to a Series 2 106 is relativly cheap alot of the kit you had for the 205 can come across to the 106. The whole ballast thing tho is a load of rubbish, look at derek tohill for example car is probably only a tiny bit heavyer than the 205's but youd swear it was lighter by the way it goes.

Look at "The Stig's" Micra vs a Mini down the straight they are virtually together yet the micra is heavyer, alot has to be said for a heavyer car but a modern engine. Torque is an amazing thing boys but nobody looks at it from that angle.

[HrRACING]

Originally Posted by rxie

as i said there is a few cars out there that look like they never seen a garden hose or a power washer in their life...

Maybe in Ireland but not over here!

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by HrRACING

Maybe in Ireland but not over here!

Over here I would say that 80% of the Stockhatches are washed between races.

[StockHatch782]

There's also the problem of what to do with your car if the 205 (which seems to be the main discussion point on here) became ineligible. Even if they were, as rxie says, phased out over two years, there would still be a glut of 205s left over, with nowhere to go. Realistically, no-one's going to buy a Stock Hatch 205 except for rallycross, and if they were outlawed, there would be no point in this. So anyone still with a 205 would be looking at either breaking it for (not very valuable) parts or scrapping it. Recycled cars may not be as camera-friendly as spanking new ones but there's no way that I, or many other drivers, could be in Stock Hatch if it weren't for a fourth- or fifth-hand 205.

[bigted]

No one is talking about banning anything, surely what we are talking about is making the new rules more open, to allow more options and think before they instantly think of a 205 or 106 saxo.

[flying flynn]

If the issue is untidy cars.
Then its simple, you have a scrutineer who refuses to pass the car if it has not been cleaaned since the last meeting
If there is excessive panel damage then issue a yellow card, the next meeting red card , lose points.
During meetings this is more difficult, so you have to be fair, but its not hard to clean cars, or find 205 wings, [£13] doors [second hand [£20 pair]

However, from my memeories of stockhatch, the racing is always very much closer than modified or supercars [Simply down to similar power outputs], therefore there was always more "rubbing" of sides of cars.
Have to say that the sponsors stickers are not readily available, as we found out now that Conor rolled his mini.
Fortunately my vinyl man will make sunstrip etc from photos.
But its amazing how many cars look a lot tidier with fresh stickers every 3 meeetings or so.
Putting an age limit on cars pushes the racing into "whos got most money". That is not what the formula was devised for.
In fact while we are on the subject, there should always in my opinion been a control suspension supplier, that would have evened things up. The winner of any formula should be about talent not money.
That engineering aspect should be for mods & supercars.
Pat

[Cryos]

Pat,

I would agree with you in regards to the competitiveness of stockhatch; But as has been said elsewhere you can pick up a 106 only a tiny bit dearer than 205 money and most of the gear fits.

Case in point as i have been using is Derek tohills car; Thats a well turned out machine that wouldnt of cost derek the world to build. If anything its almost dearer to build a car over here than it is in the uk.

[leonidas]

You've got to remember that its supposed to be an entry level formula - and entry level formulas are always going to have the oldest/cheapest/roughest cars in them. The scrutes can always warn people against anything too tatty. There's nothing to stop people running a 106 if they wish.

The FIA classes are there for the modern machinery (Div2, cup). There might be a case for a new homologated stock hatch multi valve class as a 'progression' class but would anyone take it up?

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by rxie

Pat,

I would agree with you in regards to the competitiveness of stockhatch; But as has been said elsewhere you can pick up a 106 only a tiny bit dearer than 205 money and most of the gear fits.

Case in point as i have been using is Derek tohills car; Thats a well turned out machine that wouldnt of cost derek the world to build. If anything its almost dearer to build a car over here than it is in the uk.

Rixe very little transfers over between a 106/ saxo and a 205 the seat, harness and extingisher would be about it.

[Cryos]

In the context of stockhatch what needs to be transfered, can be.

Which was also the whole point of stockhatch, its not like modified where your free to transfere any engine to any car; You are still suppose to retain alot of gear. If you already have the 106 you can transfere the essentials over.

Besides there are plenty of people who are willing to buy old 205's that have ended their competitive life.

[flying flynn]

I fully understand that you can build a 106 at sensible money now, totally agree with you there, plus Saxos you can pick up trade money now too pretty cheap.
Trouble is if you have a tidy 205 anyway, just keep it, no need to change, they are as quick as the 106, the Saxo got the advantage of running lower profile tyres as std, so helping gearing.
Its the standard of turnout that can change. If the car is presented tidy at the start of a meeting, thats perfect.
As i said earlier, stickers make the biggest difference, its amazing what simple vinyl can do, I went down the local sign man, he sold me 2 x 1metre lengths of red, blue, orange, green for just £10.
They will cover a multitude of sins.
BTW the stock hatch at Pembrey was a joke, they ran 4 &3/4 laps when Godfrey rolled, the front cars Toohill, Simpson etc crossed the finish in position then got red flagged. The race was rerun, madness. It should hve gone back 1 lap on countback. Instead another 3 stock hatches suffered damage in the rerun, which got red flagged again. Derek Toohill refused to restart. Plus all other finals delayed 40 minutes while waiting. Not the cleverest decision i have seen.
Pat

[Roundy Mooney]

It's not easy to keep a stock hatch straight !! Modifieds and supercars for the main part have fibreglass panels which allow a certain amount of contact and return to shape but with a std wing or door one knock and its for the bin !! But your right Pat it is up to the BRDA to set a standard of presentation and keep people to it. Stickers definatley make a huge difference as they break up the colours and disguise the minor ripples on panels.

Something I couldn't belive when I heard it today (and please correct me if i'm wrong) is that a stock hatch in the uk has not been checked for the last 3 years ?? Is it a case that the BRDA are only going to check cars when money is laid down ? I only ask as I think that at least 3 - 4 cars are checked at the end of the Irish championship ?