"4 wheels off" - discussion

[Piglet]

Picking up a point from the MSVR 27/28 March thread, I think it's worthy of discussion that the Blue Book now clarifies exactly what is track and what isn't and makes it easier for penalties to be applied to drivers who consistently go outside "the track".

The new wording is:

14.5. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt:

(a) the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and;

(b) a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

(c) Should a car leave the track for any reason and without prejudice to (d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

(d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Clerk of Course
and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

I know there has been feeling that this was something that Clerks didn't often act on but with the new wording it should be easier for action to be taken as the wording is clearer.

Thoughts??

[White flag man]

Just wondering whether it stipulates how many times a driver leaves the track before a report is made. I can also see a lot of discussions taking place, with the Clerk, as to whether it was deliberate or an act of avoidence.
On the whole I think it's a good thing, but there are certain posts where the "Post Chief" is going to be busy ( bottom of Graham Hill Bend at Brands, Copse at Silverstone, Sear Out at Snetterton etc, etc.)

[Norbert]

This one of my pet hates (along with drivers on the roads that don't use the flashing orange things on each corner of their vehicle!)

I raised this with Dale Wells at this year's Thruxton training day. He stated that for BARC meetings, unless briefed otherwise, 4 wheels are to be noted and reported if it happens 3 times in a session. This is the stance I will take with all clubs unless an obvious advantage is gained. Good luck to the Post Chief on Sear if a club requests every incident reported!

I think we all know that some drivers take advantage of this and will push the envelope for one hot lap in qualifying knowing that as they probably won't be reported as it will be their single 'offence' in the eyes of each Post Chief.

This was not a dig at all drivers and those that it would apply too probably don't read this forum!

Whilst I have said that this is one of my pet hates I am not going to lose any sleep over this one. It does not have a direct impact on the safety of marshals and i will report what I see as requested by the respective Clerks and let them deal with any penalties etc.

[Dave Brand]

As far as I'm concerned the new wording in the Blue Book doesn't really change anything - it's just codifying existing custom & practice.

As for clerks taking action, I've never seen that as a problem.

[HairyDJ]

I recall a meeting last summer (Clios or similar?) where it was requested that every instance of 4 wheels off during qualifying was reported as that lap time would be struck out - sounded excellent in theory.

After the first lap I moved down to assist PC collecting numbers (Copse exit) and the majority of the field went on his list very quickly, by the time he'd phoned them in I'd got another long list! After another lap or two the normal racing line was for the whole convoy to all go well over the white lines and the pen & paper were smoking.

In such a case, what options are open to the Clerk? If the whole pack are "at it" then you can't really bin every qualifying time for breaches, nor can you penalise by docking places on the grid - they'd all be starting last. The sad reality in that event is that if there was an odd driver who tried to behave, he'd lose all the advantage and probably come last - therefore he's obliged / motivated to join the others in cheating.

It might be incredibly disruptive, but if the lot of them can't behave why not throw the red out and bring all of them up to the Clerk to be read their fortune? Can't behave, then can't go out to play!

Practicalities also come into reporting - if each PC allows 3 strikes before reporting, then potentially a driver could rattle up dozens of breaches spread around the entire circuit and get away with the lot of it. Conversely, I'd had to see it becoming tactics for a driver to be deliberately pushed wide to get him into trouble - punish the cause, not the effect.

At meetings where we all share the same radio channel, I'd be very concerned if the emergency channel was clogged up with continual infringement reports.

Bottom line seems to me that even with a good (firm but fair) Clerk, much depends on the sort of drivers that the event attracts - no need to start a new thread where we nominate particular "favourites" !!

[aland]

wonder if it will apply to TOCA meetings as they seem to be bad offenders

we are very fortunate at knockhill as all of our clerks are very firm but fair, although I have heard drivers having to put an icepack on their ears after recieving a rollicking

[JimW]

The regs seem good and clear.

What is missing will be what has always been missing from some meetings:

• Clerks who will take action
• Observers who will report drivers consistently because the club valiue that.

I think the reported BARC stance is wrong. Once off at turn 1, once off at turn 3, once off at turn 4 and so on needs action after lap 1, not after lap 3 and dozens of excursions.

Also the action taken needs to be both severe and proportionate. By severe I mean something which alters driver behaviour.

In some (very few) cases, severe words may work. In most cases points on the licence (applied regularly!) will work. In others perhaps loss of all times or their best times might really hurt.

So lap 1 infractions incur a black/white flag and a mandatory talking to afterwards.

Subsequent infraction is a black flag and further action.

Tough but if you really want to change behaviour, tough is what is needed.

Jim

[Terrible-Tones]

All fair and dandy - but is it always easy to see who has four wheels off - say at Sears where we are a long way from the track? Especially if the car is going quickly and there is a pack. I am no observer so I am just wondering how easy it is to pick up such things for you guys?

Currently (last season really) in our series, everyone went wide at Sears, so no advantage gained by anyone I guess. How does it/will it work if everyone is doing it?

[JimW]

We need perhaps to consider why it might be desirable to stop excursions. Here are some considerations:

• Gaining an unfair advantage
• Damage to the grass
• Bringing stones and other debris onto the track
• Danger during the rejoin and forcing others who have kept to the track to manoeuvre to avoid, thus being disadvantaged.

Others?

Jim

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Currently (last season really) in our series, everyone went wide at Sears, so no advantage gained by anyone I guess. How does it/will it work if everyone is doing it?

Shoot the lot of you - confirms my point above that the bad guys can drag the good 'uns in to driving "the norm".

How about telling drivers briefing that carpet tacks have been scattered beyond the white line at several locations & they're welcome to explore if they're really curious while we're at it, how about a couple of the floppy markers being made of steel

[numbersix]

A related question. Or should I say "Relevant"!

If the rule of writing a report for everything phoned in (and I know it's a rule) was fully applied in all cases of FWO, even on one report per race, then shall I bring a qualified secretary to the meeting, otherwise I'll spend 99% of my time writing and 1% Observing!!

[pauln]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Practicalities also come into reporting - if each PC allows 3 strikes before reporting, then potentially a driver could rattle up dozens of breaches spread around the entire circuit and get away with the lot of it.

I'm aware of a few Clerks who operate at Silverstone who ask for reports on each instance and take action on the third report, no matter where round the circuit it comes from. I'd hope this is fairly common practice but I don't always hear what the policies being applied are.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Shoot the lot of you - confirms my point above that the bad guys can drag the good 'uns in to driving "the norm".

Exactly right DJ! Indeed it seems it is the "norm" at that corner. It will be interesting to see what happens. From little experience I know it is very tempting, and just plain easier to use the run off.

We'll get Nina to drive inside the lines and hopefully everyone else will be Disqualified which means she'll win - cool LOL

[Wet marshal]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Shoot the lot of you - confirms my point above that the bad guys can drag the good 'uns in to driving "the norm".

How about telling drivers briefing that carpet tacks have been scattered beyond the white line at several locations & they're welcome to explore if they're really curious while we're at it, how about a couple of the floppy markers being made of steel

Good post Hairy DJ, I remember telling some FF drivers,(after practice) that the chicane bollards at thruxton were concrete.

After that We had a very clean race!

[aland]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

How about telling drivers briefing that carpet tacks have been scattered beyond the white line at several locations & they're welcome to explore if they're really curious while we're at it, how about a couple of the floppy markers being made of steel

sod that, just squirt some washing up liquid onto that bit at paddock hill brands and other places, i know the kerbs are slippy in the wet (almost went on my backside walking down duffus) a bit of cheapo wash up will make them even more so. only thing is that the bandits will end up rolling and giving us more work

as for the observers, perhaps we should start recruiting pretty young ladies as PA's so that they can do the reports

[johnw]

Thanks for starting this thread Piglet.

Originally Posted by JimW

The regs seem good and clear.

And to me Jim

Originally Posted by JimW

What is missing will be what has always been missing from some meetings:
[*]Clerks who will take action

We have one of those. But he can only act on reports.

Originally Posted by JimW

[*]Observers who will report drivers consistently because the club value that.

We would like more of these, because we do value it. So if you are anywhere where PBMW's or TTRS are racing, we'd much appreciate your help.

Originally Posted by JimW

I think the reported BARC stance is wrong. Once off at turn 1, once off at turn 3, once off at turn 4 and so on needs action after lap 1, not after lap 3 and dozens of excursions.

Also the action taken needs to be both severe and proportionate. By severe I mean something which alters driver behaviour.

So lap 1 infractions incur a black/white flag and a mandatory talking to afterwards.
Subsequent infraction is a black flag and further action.

Tough but if you really want to change behaviour, tough is what is needed.

Jim

Agreed.
If a driver goes 4 wheels off of his own volition, then a B&W flag, subsequent infrigements a Black flag and loss of best lap time which effectively ruins his qually or race.
Can't think that there would be many repeat performances from said driver.

I hadn't realised the amount of writing required and agree that blocking radio traffic is a problem. Is there an alternative (better) means of communicating these infringments?

[Woolley]

Technically every time you go FWO on a corner with a tarmac run-off you're gaining an advantage, since grass/gravel/walls would have slowed you down.

I'd love there to be a safe parking place on or near each example where you have to stop before being allowed to rejoin.

Originally Posted by johnw

Is there an alternative (better) means of communicating these infringments?

There is, but you don't want to get Stoowert and me started on that hobby-horse. I'd have to ban myself for trolling!

[Ian Sowman]

This, of course, applied to the 750MC event at Snetterton three weeks ago. A DSO was in place at Sear to look for 'four wheels off', and the Clerk reported to me that there was an improvement in standards in respect of this after the lunch time briefing.

Certainly at Sear, a sensible and pragmatic approach was taken - essentially that using the extra tarmac on the exit of the corner might be acceptable, but the rougher surface was not. The basis of this is that use of that part of the circuit has not only become accepted practice, but is actually instilled in drivers as part of their tuition at that circuit.

[Stack]

There's one way to stop them using the tarmac at Sears, dig it up and put a gravel trap right up to the track like padock hill at Brands.

[Al Weyman]

I can never understand although forced to do it myself to try and keep up, that any wheels at all are allowed over the kerbs, why should it just be if all four are then its an offence. If you are allowed to ride the kerbs as it seems you can these days then one has to ask just why are they there as stated by the previous poster? I am sure this has become the norm only in recent years with guys preparing cars to ride the kerbs better. Stop the lot I say that way everyone would know where they stood.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Stack

There's one way to stop them using the tarmac at Sears, dig it up and put a gravel trap right up to the track like padock hill at Brands.

More pot holes would also do the trick. I was flagging on Sear-in, at a meeting last year, and I saw one guy go well off there. He found a big hole somewhere at the end of the tarmac, and I can still remember the horrible thunk! sound as he found it, and also watching him get perhaps 1 or 2 hundred yards up the straight before he pulled off with knackered suspension!

[Al Weyman]

Also if it was an offence to stick any wheels on the kerbs just maybe it would stop the desperate dive up the inside tactic which seems so often to end in grief and broken cars.

[JimW]

Yes, the hole on the exit from Old Hall at Oulton used to have that effect.

JIm

[Steven Humphrey]

I was at Sear out for the above mentioned 750 MC meeting and it was easier to list the cars that didn't get all four wheels off than those who did! But after the DSO was on post & the drivers were warned, things did improve and those who did repeatedly use all the run of were punished accordingly. There was one driver who, after spinning on the green flag lap, stormed back through the field to lead, using the 'illegal' run off every lap. He got the worst punishment of all though, (to add to his wrist slapping in race control) when his suspension collapsed on the last corner of the last lap!

[racerkeke]

In SCCA club racing, "4 wheels off" is a little more leniently defined (ie. tarmac good, grass/gravel/other side of curbing bad). We also have a special comm call for shortcuts, which are defined as gaining time or distance on a paved runoff that leads back to the track, such as a straight-through possibility in a chicane. The general opinion is that a true four wheels off will not result in an advantage but a shortcut will. The calls are made as they occur, and shortcuts in a qually or race loses the competitor either that lap or a defined amount of time. But Control still wants to know even if it's practice -- maybe someone's "discovered" a new piece of paving or a new line that should really be coned off, or discussed during drivers' meetings. Or maybe it's an indication that the driver shouldn't be out there playing in traffic.

My experience has been that race control generally keeps track of which cars have done what, and the stewards will request that car be given a furled black after three incidents (offs, spins, whatever) anywhere on the track. It's pretty easy to see by looking at the log since the car numbers run sequentially by incident down the left of the page, and when I've been the logger I've often murmured, "That's three.." on receiving the third call. Stewards seem inordinately interested in those murmurings, I've found!

As long as the calls are kept short and sweet, eg. "Control, 2, car 4-5 drive off and on, right" this should not be too difficult to implement at any track without clogging the radio. After all, we in the Colonies do it now and it works.
Just my 2 cents
keke