"4 wheels off" - discussion

[johnw]

Originally Posted by JimW

(I think I even recognise a suggestion of mine in there. )
Jim

Indeed you should Jim.
All of the suggestions to help marshals came from marshals. Including the waving - most of us thought that we would look like idiots waving to you all from 32nd place.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by johnw

Delighted that you found them

Link is here http://www.pbmwc.co.uk/downloads/pbm...gstandards.pdf

Don't know 'em but I LIKE this club!

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

What about clubs &/or the MSA producing a separate '4 wheels off' report form which the PC's can just note down car numbers (and time/lap number?) on & hand in to the course car after each session? When you have a full grid of 38-40 cars & over half need reporting, I can totally understand PC's not wanting to fill out 20+ report forms in between sessions!

Or failing that, how about repeat offenders having to stand on the spot where they repeatedly ran wide during the next session!!!

At the training day at Oulton Park we were told to use the standard Post Chief's (wish they'd get the apostrophe right) Report Form and put multiple FWOs on one sheet per race. So as well as filling in yet another report, we are now graphic designers.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by johnw

Link is here http://www.pbmwc.co.uk/downloads/pbm...gstandards.pdf

I remember some of that discussion, but hadn't seen the document before. I love it. Now, where's Bernie's e-mail address to send it to...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I remember some of that discussion, but hadn't seen the document before. I love it. Now, where's Bernie's e-mail address to send it to...

Or, more locally, Alan Gow's?

Perhaps a touch more realistically, what about ARDS members?

Jim

[Tal Aras]

Originally Posted by JimW

Or, more locally, Alan Gow's?

Perhaps a touch more realistically, what about ARDS members?

Jim

Handing them out to the post chiefs before a meeting might not be a bad idea. If they know what standards are expected, I'm sure they'll be happy to help enforce them.

Do all the series on the MSVR package follow these?

[johnw]

No, these apply to the Production BMW Championship and Toyo Tires Racing Saloon series.
The Elise series has very similar rules. I'll see if I can find them.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by johnw

Indeed you should Jim.
All of the suggestions to help marshals came from marshals. Including the waving - most of us thought that we would look like idiots waving to you all from 32nd place.

NEVER! It is one of my favourite bits of marshalling waving to the drivers! I love it when I get a cheery wave in return. I don't care if you are 1st or 95th - in fact I tend to support the lower placed drivers even more!

[Terrible-Tones]

Just a thought - Nina and I thought the ARDS test very basic - perhaps a little too basic. It does not include such things as 4 wheels off, what actually denotes on or off the circuit, or even things like a few tips on starting (Nina's nemesis) or really even pointers on signing on, transponders, scrutineering or anything. Things like these, and for the purposes of this discussion, especially the 4 wheels off bit, could be covered perhaps???

Essentially we turned up at our first race meeting not knowing our asses from elbows.

[aland]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

NEVER! It is one of my favourite bits of marshalling waving to the drivers! I love it when I get a cheery wave in return. I don't care if you are 1st or 95th - in fact I tend to support the lower placed drivers even more!

+1 agree totally. noticed on the itv4 coverage from thruxton that all the ginetta jnrs had their hands out and waved to the marshals on the slowing down lap. good stuff

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Just a thought - Nina and I thought the ARDS test very basic - perhaps a little too basic. It does not include such things as 4 wheels off, what actually denotes on or off the circuit, or even things like a few tips on starting (Nina's nemesis) or really even pointers on signing on, transponders, scrutineering or anything. Things like these, and for the purposes of this discussion, especially the 4 wheels off bit, could be covered perhaps???

Essentially we turned up at our first race meeting not knowing our asses from elbows.

Basic....I'd say so - I can't believe that anyone actually fails it, although I'm told that some do........I do understand that the objective of the test is to ensure that you are at least safe to be allowed onto the track, not to be an introduction to motor racing, but it does offer appalling value for money....not sure who makes out of it, MSA or the circuits, but £250 for less than 3 hours activity doesn't make a racing driver out of anyone

[SWCRacing]

Just a hint....all the answers are in that thing that comes with your licence.......the Blue Book! Read the relevant sections and actually read and understand your Final Instructions!!!

[JimW]

Or as most examiners/lecturers will tell you - RTFQ.

Jim

[Woolley]

'Q'? I thought it was RTFM?

[JimW]

Question.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Just a hint....all the answers are in that thing that comes with your licence.......the Blue Book! Read the relevant sections and actually read and understand your Final Instructions!!!

Yes you are all right - but in my defence I know, and knew, the BB like the back of my hand - even before we started racing - (I am a sad muppet - I have read it and reread it as I am a marshal as well). However I don't think it is as simple as that.... We still felt very much at sea - eg the BB doesn't say anything about WHERE to get/hire tranx, that they need to be 260, nor does it mention starting techniques, nor does the ARDS test, but starting reasonably well is surely a safety aspect...!

We didn't even realise what "Final Instructions" were and these seem to vary wildly from club to club (our series "cuddles" up with various umbrella clubs as it is not big enough to hold a meeting in its own right). For instance at our first two races the "New Drivers Briefing" consisted of being handed a sheet of paper, at the next meeting there was a proper briefing, 5 mins away from our Q period....hmmm! What do you do - attend and miss half of Q, not attend, ask the CoC what to do (whoever that might be when you are new)? I sorted it with the CoC in the end using my "marshaling knowledge" to find him, not by looking it up in the BB which would not have given me an answer to that problem...... So "RTFM" isn't the full answer! I did RTFM and we still felt lost with all the practical stuff. Still, as with everything, you soon learn!

I just think the ARDS could be a little more helpful perhaps? For instance - flag colours are taught but that is all - there is no mention of flag sectors! Also how and where to approach the Circuit Staff, or CoC team should you have a problem or need advice...this sort of stuff is useful.

It was just an observation/thought...........based on our personal experience....others of course may have had different experiences entirely. Thinking this is beginning to run "off topic" now?

[The Fat Clerk]

The section the Blue Book doesn't have is common sense

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

The section the Blue Book doesn't have is common sense

I think I am beginning to realise that we had an unusually bad experience for our first couple of races.....??

[Ian Sowman]

TT races an interesting point. There probably is a gap in what is available for newcomers on the 'practicalities', for want of a better expression. I am not sure if the MSA, or anyone else, is doing anything to address this - there may be an opportunity for someone there to produce a book/DVD/website to communicate this aspect.

Things like taking a race start... I would argue that is more of a race technique thing, so perhaps should be covered off during any race tuition that I would imagine most novice racers partake in.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

any race tuition that I would imagine most novice racers partake in.

I don't know anyone who's done race tuition! As a championship, we try to hold the hand of novices for their first couple of races, pointing out where the holding area is, what time to be there, etc

[The Fat Clerk]

Clubs have to give a talk to Drivers who are new to a circuit before practice. If you've got any questions and are shy to ask them in front of others, talk to the Clerk giving the briefing afterwards. most of us have racing experience and we are human......honest

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I think I am beginning to realise that we had an unusually bad experience for our first couple of races.....??

Hugely unfair I think!!! IIRC Nina's first race was at the MSVR meeting at Silverstone? The two of you came to Race Control and the Race Director ran through bits and pieces with you and told you that if you had any queries you should return. I seem to remember that this was because she had missed her series briefing but I may be wrong about that.

Each club does operate differently and for MSVR Nina would have been asked if she had raced at a circuit before and if she hadn't then she would have been given a sheet of new driver notes. MSVR's view is that it is easier to give new driver's notes that they can review in their own time and at their own speed rather than a briefing which can be a bit difficult to take in. A new driver briefing will be for any driver who has not RACED at that circuit before, not especially for novice drivers, a driver may be hugely experienced but not have visted a particular circuit before.

MSVR then, usually, run a series briefing for each individual series dealing with anything relevant to the series and the circuit. This briefing may be after qualifying as there is usually just not time to get sign-on, scrutineering and briefings completed in during the short time before qualifying starts for the day. There will always be an "any questions" moment and the Clerk will usually hang around afterwards in case anyone has a question that they didn't like to ask in the group.

BARC run dedicated new driver briefings but there will always be a poster at sign on (usually an A3 poster) giving the times of new driver briefings and there will always be a number of opportunities to attend a new driver briefing - it's up to the driver to identify a briefing that doesn't clash with his on track sessions, so if you leave it to the last briefing time then find it clashes with an on-track session don't be too surprised not to get a sympathetic response...Details of BARC briefings are included in their Supplementary instructions sent to competitors.

I can't remember what BRSCC do, I think they run new driver briefings but someone else may know better.

It's up to competitors to make sure they are in the right place at the right time and there is an assumption that competitors will have equipped themselves with the basic skills and knowledge prior to entering a race. At MSVR meetings the doors to Race Control and Race Admin are always open; the clerks will talk to drivers at any time to answer queries about start procedure etc. and we will do everything we can to answer questions and deal with problems. We don't want people getting things wrong, it tends to make a mess of our track and timetable as well as generating paperwork!

I can appreciate that a first race meeting is daunting, however, most series have a co-ordinator who should be your first port of call, there will be other competitors in the paddock who were all newbies once. There are plenty of people to help you out but you have to ask.

[Woolley]

Wandering a little away from marshalling matters here, but surely TT's questions ought to be the remit of the series co-ordinator to explain what's expected of their drivers and to offer assistance? Which kind of takes us back to the BMW document.

[edited]Piglet dealt with that so much better and with much more knowledge[/edit]

[JimW]

I'm surprised that there does not seem to be a "Here's the practical details you need to know for your first race" booklet on sale. Perhaps someone here could produce one?

(Mind you the series of little articles by Stuart Turner in the MSA newsletter (I forget the name of the publication) cover quite a lot of the ground.)

Jim

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Hugely unfair I think!!! IIRC Nina's first race was at the MSVR meeting at Silverstone?.

Oh dear...I fear I am digging my hole deeper and deeper....

Yes Piglet you are right Nina's first race was Silverstone.
OK point taken - perhaps an unfair comment on my part - I'm sorry - no offence meant at all.

Yes we did spend a long time in RC - but what I didn't realise was that "constituted" a "New Driver" briefing. (It did...right?)

I hadn't until now really thought of it as a bad experience - but I was just beginning to wonder if it was "unusual"..."unusual" perhaps being a better description than "bad".

It just seems that no matter how much I thought we had prepared - somehow we found ourselves completely unprepared....if you see what I mean?

As a marshal yes I am completely aware of the fact that race control and CoC's etc are very approachable and I have used that a couple of times to sort out stuff.

I think Woolley has hit the mark with his posting below about the Series itself helping out. I have since found out that most Series/Championships produce publications or other help for new drivers. I have seen the Locost one and the ones posted here. Sadly our series did not do any such thing at the time - I think, looking back, that is what was missing big time. Therefore my points turn out not to be related to ARDS or BB at all - after all that!! Got that sorted in my head now....thanks for clearing up my confusion guys...

(Still think ARDS could be improved though!)

I believe our Co-ord is looking at producing a document as we speak!

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by JimW

I'm surprised that there does not seem to be a "Here's the practical details you need to know for your first race" booklet on sale. Perhaps someone here could produce one?

(Mind you the series of little articles by Stuart Turner in the MSA newsletter (I forget the name of teh publication) cover quite a lot of the ground.)

Jim

Quite - needs perhaps to go out with your (1st) licence though rather than be a seperate publication.