fire tender rolls at brands hatch??

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by The STIG

Using something that isn't likely to catch fire itself...

So you wouldn't use one of these

Originally Posted by The STIG

Like the Jags at Donington and Silverstone?

My attempt at injecting some humour into a serious incident.

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

reason they tend to use 4x4 for fire truck, coz they can double up for doing snatches..

But no good for high speed fast response - Come to think of it, if it was so urgent for the tender to get there so fast, why was it so late in coming out?

Bit like we have at Pembrey, a regular fire car driver and suitable car

You mean this?



Golf 1 would be a heck of a lot more suitable with a roll cage and uprated suspension!

[jonbryant]

Originally Posted by The SpeCTator

Jeff was not at Brands today.

But I was... My photo on the first page on the FB link.

My understanding from what I could see is that it was on a scramble to a rolled truck. Shortly afterwards a line of spilled fluid was dressed all round the circuit. You might put 2 + 2 together as to the cause of Fire 1 losing control

[Apple]

Originally Posted by Lrawlings

saw it roll from the stand, was off post 2 due to trucks racing. cause was indeed a massive diesel spillage around the whole track! glad to hear driver was ok. even without wearing a seatbelt!

Is it appropriate to comment about seat belts when your view point was from the stands.?
As marshals I think we have all been told that we should not comment on incidents that have taken place while we are on duty.
For the record I was on post 4a for the day and did attend the fire truck incident.
And I to am also very pleased to hear that BOTH marshals in the fire truck are ok.
Mick

[PVDA]

4 wheel drives and fast responses don't mix.

We've got an All Wheel Drive Holden Cross8 Crewman ute that's used at Winton as the Chase vehicle.



It's got a hopper the same size as the one on the unit in the photo from Brands with cupboard space for rescue gear, seat space for a crew of 4 and does snatches regularly.



Did I mention it's powered by a 5.7 litre V8??

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

The things people will do.......

Seriously, glad to hear no harm done.

Less seriously - something else to blame Bloxham for!

Seems Mr. Bloxham was not at this one, but it looks like he had given Mr. Bryant the magnet to use.

[Bodysnatcher]

In defence of Jeff I never said he was there either (but assumed he was). JB(snr) mentioned ths diesel spill on Jon Bryant(JBjnr)'s Fb page. I just reckoned most people would accept JBsnr as a good source of accurate info.

As for all this talk of Jags, Brands had one many years ago. It was a one trick pony. nice bit of show, but really, a useful tool?, no, I think not.

A decent pickup is a more capable piece of kit in many more scenarios. Yesterday the team got caught out by a treacherous surface on one of Britain's most demanding race corners.

Perhaps they should have been driving more carefully, but as is often said,
a - there but for the grace of god..
b - the other man's incident is always the easiest to deal with

(Did I mention I nearly put one of the old green Vauxhall minivans in the gravel when the pig just understeered through that corner?)

[anna_blakemore]

From the long video footage and photos that have already been posted it seems clear that the fire truck was not being scrambled quickly to an incident as there were already incident team as well as rescue crews there and the large breakdowns had already been sent to recover the truck, so the real question is why were they traveling fast enough to roll it? After all the video shows two large recovery trucks pass over the same place moments before, then the rescue unit (and presumably course car) had come from there as well without incident. Lessons will only be learnt if we ask the right questions.
I know that they are top heavy, but its not designed to be a rapid response truck like the Silverstone jag. So shouldn’t be pushed hard around the track, maybe a little red mist?
Maybe one question that should be raised along with the helmets/roll cage issue is the standard of driver. Im not saying that the person driving it wasnt competent but if we are using 'intervention' vehicles should the drive have or have had a racing license and the experience to drive quickly and safely to an incident. It (used to be) a requirement that the safety car driver was a current race driver should the same apply to other response vehicles. I understand that Sid at Silverstone used to be a license holder (maybe still is) and although he may go to quickly at times he is in my opinion a competent driver at speed and knows the cars limitation.
Maybe for next year circuits/clubs will have dedicated drivers of fire trucks/cars who can be trained or are license holders (there are a lot of marshals who race after all)

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by PVDA

4 wheel drives and fast responses don't mix.

We've got an All Wheel Drive Holden Cross8 Crewman ute that's used at Winton as the Chase vehicle.



It's got a hopper the same size as the one on the unit in the photo from Brands with cupboard space for rescue gear, seat space for a crew of 4 and does snatches regularly.



Did I mention it's powered by a 5.7 litre V8??

Hi Paul, thanks for posting a pic with me in it (top one) I think I remember asking that driver what type beer he thought the safety team likes..... I can't seem to recall any other reason I’d have my head in his window....

On the subject of the incident, thankfully these things are few & far between.

In my 22 years as a Fire/Rescue Marshall/Medical Car/Safety Car driver I have luckily never seriously thrown one away.
I’m happy to concede I had a little spin in the wet in a 5.7 lt SS Commodore FIV medical car at the T 2-3 complex at Sandown one day on an out lap (heading for chase position) and have understeered a 4 WD Navara off a number of times (simply going too fast). Luckily, none of these were during a turn out, or a race chase.

So I guess I’m either not really trying or I’m simply just not fast enough, but I’m comfortable, and my crew have never told me to slow down. (or to go faster)

Quite a few of my fellow team members (not PVDA, he is like the tortoise, who gets there in one piece at the end), have had an off a number of times (with no adverse results) and each time overdriving was the only cause.

I was a volunteer urban fire-fighter before I became a Marshal, and learned early on about 'turning-out' (and one for you Poms, back then the Hendon Driving System.
People’s lives may depend on you getting the vehicle to the scene of the emergency, so only ever proceed in a manner that is safe and expedient.

I really do feel for the Marshals involved at Brands, and I will not criticise them for doing their volunteer work. I also understand the ribbing they will get in the months to come (maybe us Aussies are harder on our 'mates' ???) but I'm sorry I refuse to indulge in the offering of excuses for the incident.

No matter what excuse is offered,(diesel, Britain's most demanding race corner) the driver was not driving to the conditions, pure & simple. The fact it is know to be a treacherous corner is even more reason take extra care.

Consider that all of a sudden the resources needed to combat the combined incidents at hand potentially more than doubled.


All this talk of roll cages and helmets is a nonsense knee-jerk reaction. (wait till the HSE get involved....)

Putting a cage in will potentially add a false sense of security, and wearing a helmet trackside will remove all 'Trackcraft' ability any Marshal posses' by removing his/her ability to hear properly. We trialled them 20 years ago at the Thunderdome (NASCAR racing) here, and it was a near disaster.


Just my 2-bob’s worth, and will gladly debate with anyone, but as a Marshal, unless you have driven on a race track (and a hot track at that) and understood the adrenaline rush & pressures, please don’t make a fool of yourself.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

really do feel for the Marshals involved at Brands, and I will not criticise them for doing their volunteer work. I also understand the ribbing they will get in the months to come (maybe us Aussies are harder on our 'mates' ???) but I'm sorry I refuse to indulge in the offering of excuses for the incident

No matter what excuse is offered,(diesel, Britain's most demanding race corner) the driver was not driving to the conditions, pure & simple. The fact it is know to be a treacherous corner is even more reason take extra care

I was not offering an excuse.
I was offering a reason.
I will know the individuals concerned (although I was not there yesterday) and as you say the accident was caused by the driver - pure & simple.

[Woolley]

The problem is, with a vehicle so top heavy as this the difference between perfectly safe and upside down is extremely marginal - anyone who's been on an advanced truck driving course will tell you that. I've heard quoted an example of a truck who rolled at an island who's data showed he was travelling 2mph faster than he usually did.

It might only have taken hitting the slippery surface at the wrong angle to turn what is normally a perfectly safe and sensible speed into disaster and without video evidence that he was driving in an unsafe manner I don't think we can assume he was. In contrast to the other vehicles which passed through they don't suffer the same instability issues caused by the weight distribution being moved upwards.

Thus the only comment I will make on the driver is the hope that he's OK following this scary incident, and that any investigation is done fairly and with full consideration for the type of vehicle and track conditions.

[Distantecho]

To clarify the response time question of the delay before the tender got going to the incident, it was not scrambled until the medic car had arrived at the initial truck scene and then requested fire cover for the driver extraction at the incident.

[SPECTATORSAL]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The problem is, with a vehicle so top heavy as this the difference between perfectly safe and upside down is extremely marginal - anyone who's been on an advanced truck driving course will tell you that. I've heard quoted an example of a truck who rolled at an island who's data showed he was travelling 2mph faster than he usually did.

It might only have taken hitting the slippery surface at the wrong angle to turn what is normally a perfectly safe and sensible speed into disaster and without video evidence that he was driving in an unsafe manner I don't think we can assume he was. In contrast to the other vehicles which passed through they don't suffer the same instability issues caused by the weight distribution being moved upwards.

Thus the only comment I will make on the driver is the hope that he's OK following this scary incident, and that any investigation is done fairly and with full consideration for the type of vehicle and track conditions.

Having witnessed what happened first hand, I'd have said it was purely a case of hitting the slippery surface (in this case diesel) at the wrong angle & turning what was normally a perfectly safe and sensible speed into a disaster. Having said that, the driver did seem to be following the racing line but if no-one had forewarned him!! Like you say, let's just hope that both he & his passenger are OK.....

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by The STIG

But no good for high speed fast response - Come to think of it, if it was so urgent for the tender to get there so fast, why was it so late in coming out?



You mean this?



Golf 1 would be a heck of a lot more suitable with a roll cage and uprated suspension!

i remember it well, slicks on with changing conditions....
But !!! it didn't roll which is the important bit, low centre of gravity n all that

[Mark Mitchell]

Am assuming the Oil/Change of Surface/whateverit'scalled flag was still being displayed prior to the start of the spill?

[Peter Scillitoe]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Am assuming the Oil/Change of Surface/whateverit'scalled flag was still being displayed prior to the start of the spill?

During truck races at Brands Hatch, almost all posts are completely evacuated by marshals on safety grounds. Those that are marshalled (and I know of only one) contain only a senior PC and one flag marshal. The only flags in use are the yellow and the red. The other PC's operate from spectator areas with radio contact with RC. There are a few areas where flagging is attempted from a spectator area (again, red & yellow flags only), but the sight lines of the drivers are questionable. I doubt very much, therefore, that there was any flag warning of the diesel slick on the track.

The accident was just that. It could have happened to any of us who drive track vehicles, and it was certainly NOT being driven either too fast or badly (and, yes, I did witness the entire incident). The fact that other vehicles did not loose control was down to good luck and the type of vehicle. Given where it happened, and the loading of the fire truck, I doubt that the World Rally Champion could have prevented it happening had he been driving.

Fortunately, both the crew had a lucky escape. Shaken and stirred, and a few lumps and bumps, but otherwise unscathed.

I am sure that lessons can and will be learnt. But, criticism by those who were not there on the basis of still FB photographs or videos on You Tube is uncalled for. As somebody said earlier in this thread, we also need to be careful of knee-jerk reactions in the aftermath.

Mark, I am not in anyway getting at you. Just linked this to your perfectly reasonable comment about whether flags (slippery surface) were being shown.

[SPECTATORSAL]

Indeed...."the accident was just that"....

In the absence of flags perhaps someone should have sent the driver a radio controlled message to warn him about the spillage but it's easy to talk about this after the event!

The main thing is that they are both OK....obviously!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Peter Scillitoe

Mark, I am not in anyway getting at you. Just linked this to your perfectly reasonable comment about whether flags (slippery surface) were being shown.

Didn't think you were for one second Peter, and yes, I forgot that marshals are "Moved" for trucks!

I'm glad to hear that the driver and his/her buddy are OK in what must have been a pretty trouser-soiling incident!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Peter Scillitoe

The accident was just that. It could have happened to any of us who drive track vehicles, and it was certainly NOT being driven either too fast or badly (and, yes, I did witness the entire incident). The fact that other vehicles did not loose control was down to good luck and the type of vehicle. Given where it happened, and the loading of the fire truck, I doubt that the World Rally Champion could have prevented it happening had he been driving.

Exactly, I've seen cars, and I know of trucks, that have rolled at 10-20 mph, it's just a matter of things going wrong in the wrong place.

One thing that interests me is why they don't wear crash helmets, do they wear belts? As drivers we aren't even allowed in the pit lane on the way back to the paddock without belts or helmets worn.

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

i remember it well, slicks on with changing conditions....
But !!! it didn't roll which is the important bit, low centre of gravity n all that

It didn't roll, which is amazing considering the way that thing goes around corners... That's why I say it needs a suspension upgrade and a roll cage! If it wasn't so slippery it would be much more likely to roll over.

[fazza]

A few things to remember,

1. no one has seen the full incident on film, so don't actually know how it started.
2. did something break on the truck?
3. it looks just before the FT scrambles that on of the rescue crew was on the radio, possible calling for fire cover as there will undoutabley be fuel leaking from a truck in that position. (if driver still in truck then needed at speed)
4. track conditions were not ideal, the recovery trucks are a damed sight heavier than the FT and therefore not as easy to roll.

As we are all taught Facts only on the incident report forms please so if you where not there and did not see it, its irelevent what 'you thought or think' happened.

[chinook220]

A couple of possible solutions?

1. In future mount tanks horizontally to reduce the high centre of gravity, stiffen rear suspension to reduce the roll of the vehicle.
2. Change of fire fighting equipment to pressure washer style system water/ user controllable AFFF mix. This equipment is could be dual-role changing the AFFF mix to oil cleaning fluid?
It could be deployed without fear of cost or being out of use requiring re-charging as you simply refill the water tank and Separate AFFF tank then you’re ready to redeploy http://www.firexpress.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhAeTmCzmKM&feature=related

[SWCRacing]

I really can't hold my tongue any longer, so here goes.....

If you werent there and DIRECTLY involved in this incident, please stop making assumptions about what did or did not happen!

I was there, I KNOW what happened. I will not post anything more about this incident in a public forum as this is not the place for unfounded speculation

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I really can't hold my tongue any longer, so here goes.....

If you werent there and DIRECTLY involved in this incident, please stop making assumptions about what did or did not happen!

I was there, I KNOW what happened. I will not post anything more about this incident in a public forum as this is not the place for unfounded speculation

You beat me to this.

I've had limited access to the forum today and couldn't post but I'm really disappointed in the comments being made by marshals about other marshals, especially where most (including me) have very little knowledge of the facts .

The standard marshal's forum rules apply, we don't discuss the conduct of specific marshals in specific incidents. It's a rule for everyone's benefit - remember one day it might be you in the limelight and you might be glad that your colleagues don't get to criticise what you did and didn't do in a given situation.

Discuss the incident generally if you wish, show your concern for the marshals and all those involved but no armchair criticism of specific individuals.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I really can't hold my tongue any longer, so here goes.....

If you werent there and DIRECTLY involved in this incident, please stop making assumptions about what did or did not happen!

I was there, I KNOW what happened. I will not post anything more about this incident in a public forum as this is not the place for unfounded speculation

Nice.

May I remind you that everyone here is entitled to voice their opinion. You do not have to agree with it and if you want to remain silent... then do exactly that ! Ya ?