"Course" Grade Scrapped?

[chezza]

Well to get from trainee to incident at the moment is 20 sigs.

What I was getting at is that I don't think people should be trainee, collect their 10 sigs and go straight to incident.

Yes at the moment course and incident are almost the same and are often issued the same duties, but usually you have a course marshal placed with an incident marshal, so you still get that experience there.

If all of a sudden all incident marshals only have "course" experience (bearing in mind that that could only be a years worth of marshalling) could we not be leaving ourselves open to safety issues??

Also there are some circuits that would deam you to be able to control a post as acting IO once you have reached your red badge...this wouldn't be so good if you've only got a years worth of experience.

[Firefox]

In defence of my comment which has touched nerve with some one, I would say that the first thing you have to learn as a marshal is the ability to laugh at your self.

I leave you all to draw you own conclusions.

[Stephen Green]

I can see your point Chezza but doesn't that already happen with the severe lack of marshals we are experiencing?

I know the IO role is different at Silverstone that from other circuits, but I find that if there are not enough Incident/Course marshals on a post for a particular meeting, the IO effectively becomes an Incident marshal, and the Observer takes over both the senior roles.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

At the moment we have Course and Incident, and to most people there is no difference between the two grades, so why should a trainee not go straight to incident as they would to course?

I'm not 'most people'.....I'm an IO! To me there is a significant difference! In organising my incident team I need to pair people up so as to be be able to deal with incidents in a safe, efficient manner. The existence of two grades gives me a guide as how I can best achieve this. Of course, there are other criteria which apply, but grade is a good starting point - I know that a 'red' has more experience than a 'green' (not you, Stephen! ) &, furthermore, has demonstrated his/her competence in incident handling in order to obtain that grade. Especially with people I don't know, I don't just use grading as my sole criterion - I'll ask trainees how many meetings they have done & how many signatures they have, similarly I'll ask greens how many signatures they have. With people I know,I know the ones I can trust with responsibility above their grade & ones who still need to be paired with somebody more experienced. Take away the two grades & the job becomes more difficult!

I also believe that having another grade to train & qualify for after graduating from trainee may even help in retaining marshals - it gives recognition for experience & knowledge.

We have to consider what the impact of a lengthy trainee period would be to recruitment!

Maybe we need to look at why, in some circles, there seems to be some sort of stigma attached to 'trainee'? Perhaps a change in name to something more neutral, such as 'track', would help. I had no problem with the length of the trainee period when I was a trainee, nor do a lot of the trainees I've worked with recently. We need to emphasise that trainee status is not a reflection of people's ability, just a reflection of their inexperience.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

To me, it seems that the course grade is possibly the equivalent of the letter "R" that UK drivers have to have for the first year they pass their test?

A good analogy. (But 'R' plates are only used in NI!)

[scorch]

I think the main concern here is that how do you tell the difference between a marshall that has raced to get signatures and has limited ability, and another marshall that has done 40+ meetings for the past 15 years.

Without a course grade they would both have the same grade.

[EvilPumpkin]

well that's a separate issue - a lot of people don't bother participating in the grading scheme.

Also, in some places there are things you can't grade for. For instance, in NI, you can't grade as IO. I've been Incident for over 4 years but I can't try to upgrade to IO as it's not a position that's used at Kirkistown. Doesn't necessarily mean I can't do the job (and I'm not saying that I can either... ) but I'll never have a grade to say so.

[Stephen Green]

Dave, going back to your comments for a moment. You rightly state that you ask what experience the guys have at Observer or IO briefing, surely that helps when working out who to pair with who? My comments were also made on the basis that we seem to have less and less marshals on post so we have to use them all to the best of their ability.

[fazza]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

I always had the impression (and it's probably completely wrong, so I'm fully prepared to be stomped on..! ) that the Course grade was a little easier to achieve than the Incident grade.

I know to get an upgrade sig for Incident, you actually had to do incident related stuff, whereas with Course the criteria was a bit more relaxed and geared towards knowing how to look after yourself and work a post etc. - so in theory, you didn't necessarily have to have an incident to get a Course upgrade sig - provided you'd been doing stuff like say an oil clean up or sweeping etc.

Now that was just an impression I had and could be completely wrong.

EP I have 10 signatures and am a trainee going upgrading to course.
All of the signatures I have received have been for attending incidents, these range from engines blowing and dropping oil the length of the curciut to a pair of single seater tangling wheels one flipping over the other and ending perched atop the tyre barrier, so I would class all of these as incidents.

How woould you gain signature from trainee to course if it was 'bit more relaxed and geared towards knowing how to look after yourself and work a post etc'.

Allan

[Alan Crook]

I agree that there should be two different grades. Why not have Incident and Experienced Incident. This would keep it in line with the specialist grades.

[chezza]

I think were nearly all agreeing that there should be two grades...

I am wondering if the msa has heard the phrase "If it ain't broke don't fix it"?

[Cynic]

I can't see the point of two grades at the current time. As has been pointed out, the numbers problem mean that it is not unusual for a course marshal to have to act as an incident marshal or even an IO at some meetings. And here's an additional problem: like some people I am happy as a course marshal and have no desire to upgrade. But I tend to see the same faces at the same meetings and various observers and CM's know that I am able and experienced enough to operate at a "higher" grade if necessary. The question is how do you bring that across?

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by fazza

EP I have 10 signatures and am a trainee going upgrading to course.
All of the signatures I have received have been for attending incidents, these range from engines blowing and dropping oil the length of the curciut to a pair of single seater tangling wheels one flipping over the other and ending perched atop the tyre barrier, so I would class all of these as incidents.

How woould you gain signature from trainee to course if it was 'bit more relaxed and geared towards knowing how to look after yourself and work a post etc'.

Allan

Fazza, if you'd actually bothered to read all of my original post, you'd see that I specifically said it was just an impression I had from some Obs that I worked with - it wasn't any reflection on the people grading for course.

I'll bow out. I really should know better than to get involved in these threads by now.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Cynic

And here's an additional problem: like some people I am happy as a course marshal and have no desire to upgrade. But I tend to see the same faces at the same meetings and various observers and CM's know that I am able and experienced enough to operate at a "higher" grade if necessary. The question is how do you bring that across?

Ah, irony! If you consider yourself good enough to be considered as a sort of pseudo-incident marshal, why not go for the grade......problem solved!

[alan-g]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

I agree that there should be two different grades. Why not have Incident and Experienced Incident. This would keep it in line with the specialist grades.

Sounds good to me

[Circuitmarshal]

When I was a trainee owing to shortage of marshals three of my signatures were one each for Flags, Incident & Comms, so grade don't matter if you haven't got the marshals.
People that know me will say Course is right for me cos I AM!!

[PeterM]

Just to muddy the waters even more!
As Alan C says, there is a Specialist grade and Experienced Specialist. There is also Examining Specialist who can sign the cards of the other Specialists

Whilst we are proposing Incident and Experienced Incident (with which I agree), why not have an Examining Incident who can sign the cards of other members of the incident team. There are often not enough X Obs about so course and incident marshals can have a busy meeting and show their expertise but cannot get a signature.

It is possible that the Obs has gone the trainee, flag, obs route and may not have the incident experience of some the IOs. Why not therefore allow an IO to sign a card.

[scorch]

Originally Posted by PeterM

It is possible that the Obs has gone the trainee, flag, obs route and may not have the incident experience of some the IOs. Why not therefore allow an IO to sign a card.

Another point on the same theme, the obs will have not dealt with the incident, so may not be aware if the marshall handeled it worthy of a signature.

With respect to signatures, back many years ago when i grading from trainee to course, it was almost like attendance, if you turn up and show basic attention and have a bit of a clue as to what you are doing then that is sufficient for a signature, obviously if you deal with an incident then thats a bonus.

When i graded to incident (which used to be called fire) you would have to sufficiently deal with an incident, some observers would only give a signature is you put out a fire.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Fazza, if you'd actually bothered to read all of my original post, you'd see that I specifically said it was just an impression I had from some Obs that I worked with - it wasn't any reflection on the people grading for course.

I'll bow out. I really should know better than to get involved in these threads by now.

May I refer you to this thread
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90199

[Stephen Green]

Most Observers do see what their team are doing, that's an integral part of the job. If there are no Ex Obs then it is possible for the Observer to ask the COC or Chief Marshal to sign the card at the end of the meeting,

To be fair, most people would expect you to attend a fire training day to get your signature for that part!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

Why not have Incident and Experienced Incident.

In other words Level I and Level II - as I said earlier!

[Stephen Green]

Oh dear Mark, I think you should pop a thick book down the back of your trousers the next time you see EP. I feel you are in for a serious spanking

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Oh dear Mark, I think you should pop a thick book down the back of your trousers the next time you see EP. I feel you are in for a serious spanking

Can't wait - but I hope she takes it in the spirit is was intended!!

[EvilPumpkin]

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Nope - I stopped participating very much in this forum because it seemed that there was always someone queuing up to misread what I'd said (or simply hear it via chinese whispers without even reading it ) and get their nose out of joint - something that has caused me some difficulty both at home and on visits to the UK as some of you are aware. Every so often I forget and get involved in a conversation - it doesn't usually take long for me to be reminded why I stopped though. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[fazza]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Fazza, if you'd actually bothered to read all of my original post,

Chill out EP I was not attacking your post or you, just remarking on my own experiance.

Allan