Grading, confused? I am!

275 GTB-4 · 29 Nov 2006, 09:49 (Ref:1777575)

Read yesterday where CAMS in Australia is bringing in a new "more marketable" grading system for Officials. Previously, we had Grade 4 for newbies up to Grade 1 for right-hand of God type Officials.

Now we are to be called trendy "frequent flyer" names like...Gold, Silver and Bronze etc....what Grading System do other countries use??

From what I have read, the FIA leaves it up to each country to administer.

**Stephen Green** · 29 Nov 2006, 10:24 (Ref:1777610)

The UK grading system is on our website www.marshals.co.uk

I hope that helps?

275 GTB-4 · 29 Nov 2006, 12:08 (Ref:1777701)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

The UK grading system is on our website www.marshals.co.uk

I hope that helps?

Thanks Stephen...I couldn't find "Track Invasion 101, what to do, Catching, Priests, Safely"

No...the sensible grading structure displayed using real names understandable by everyone just reinforces my opinion that we have hared-off at a tangent

**Stephen Green** · 29 Nov 2006, 12:22 (Ref:1777717)

You have to adopt what works best for you. There are plans (I believe) to simplify the UK grading system further, which in part I agree with.

Mike Kelly 1 · 29 Nov 2006, 18:07 (Ref:1777950)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

You have to adopt what works best for you. There are plans (I believe) to simplify the UK grading system further, which in part I agree with.

Yes, from now on we will be known as Marshals!

**Stephen Green** · 30 Nov 2006, 16:25 (Ref:1778784)

Take a look at the 'latest news' on our website and you will see what I was hinting at.

Dave Brand · 30 Nov 2006, 16:59 (Ref:1778819)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Take a look at the 'latest news' on our website and you will see what I was hinting at.

It's on the homepage, not 'latest news'!

Dave Brand · 30 Nov 2006, 19:57 (Ref:1778971)

For those who are wondering what Stephen's 'latest news' comment refers to, it's the new MSA grading scheme:

http://www.marshals.co.uk/files/Revi...g%20Scheme.pdf

Take a look!

gravel_monkey · 1 Dec 2006, 00:02 (Ref:1779140)

i might be being stupid on this one but, what will happen with someone who is currently on the current white/trainee badge but is only waiting for a training sig to complete the upgrading cards at the start of the year? will they obtain the track marshal title?

Mark Mitchell · 1 Dec 2006, 07:51 (Ref:1779250)

There's obviously going to be some negative feedback - so I'll start!

POST CHIEF - a more accurate description.
Yet the new scheme allows for IO's?Trainer Buddies to assess!

That name.....Trainer/Buddy......very er......dunno - doesn't sound right!
Plus it says this is someone who can help marshals understand their duty and has interpersonal skills.........wasn't that always called the Observer?

**Asp** · 1 Dec 2006, 10:17 (Ref:1779367)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

That name.....Trainer/Buddy......very er......dunno - doesn't sound right!
Plus it says this is someone who can help marshals understand their duty and has interpersonal skills.........wasn't that always called the Observer?

I actually think this idea of a trainer/buddy to provide the final assessment is a good one.
There are marshals out there who are very good at training new marshals, yet (for whatever reason) don't want to be an observer (Post Chief) or run official MSA training sessions. The chance at giving these people the chance to get these skills used properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravel monkey

i might be being stupid on this one but, what will happen with someone who is currently on the current white/trainee badge but is only waiting for a training sig to complete the upgrading cards at the start of the year? will they obtain the track marshal title?

I'm sure this will be answered in due course - but it doesn't just apply for trainees upgrading to course/track, it applies to all partially completed upgrades. So will current upgrade cards be transferable onto the new personal record cards when they become available?

Dave Brand · 1 Dec 2006, 10:59 (Ref:1779393)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

There's obviously going to be some negative feedback - so I'll start!

Right now I have more questions than answers, so I'm holding back from comment until all the i's are dotted & the t's crossed; I don't think, at this stage, that public discussion of the merits or otherwise of the scheme would be very productive.

Quote:

Plus it says this is someone who can help marshals understand their duty and has interpersonal skills.........wasn't that always called the Observer?

I'd like to think that those qualities are possessed by some IO's!

**Stephen Green** · 1 Dec 2006, 11:27 (Ref:1779415)

As with any change to the 'norm' there will be plus and minus points. I agree with David, we need to sit down and digest the changes and see how they work in practice.

Let's not forget that these changes are supposed to make it easier to achieve a grading, not a bad move in my book given the obvious lack of Ex Obs at some events.

Stuart Hill · 1 Dec 2006, 20:18 (Ref:1779801)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Let's not forget that these changes are supposed to make it easier to achieve a grading, not a bad move in my book given the obvious lack of Ex Obs at some events.

fair point except........

If grades are "easier" to obtain, are they then worth as much?
Will this move actually hurt marshalling by diluting the level of Observer with some "maybe-not-quite" Observers?

Q: More Ex Obs at some events = ?????
A: more marshals?, better marshals?.

when I started marshalling some 20+ yrs ago, there were always days without an 'X' on post but it never worried me. What I did know was though, whenever an Ex Ob was on post, was that I was now under the watchful eye of someone who has not only been-there and done-it, but has also been acknowledged as being of that level and as such, should be listened to!

I never worried about being graded sooner, I just trusted that it would happen, as it did. But because it took so much effort/time/days... it meant a lot to me. I had Earned my grade. It meant a lot to me then and I expected it to mean as much to future marshals.

But what has happened recently (at Hill-Climbs) and looks to be furthered by these changes is....

the overall percepted belief in the Grading System will be further eroded ( by allowing "Non-Observers" to sign cards) to the extent that a 'Grade' will only be a record of days attended, rather than as used to be, a definition of 'Ability'.

How will the Chief Marshals of next year/decade be able to trust the grades on a "new-face's" overalls and feel safe in deciding where to post them and with which duty?

I'm sorry (and I'm going to be shouted-at and don't care) but...........

XXXX number of days marshalling does not a Marshal make.
XXX+ number of days marshalling correctly under suitable observation may do.

**Stephen Green** · 2 Dec 2006, 09:36 (Ref:1780120)

I think we have to look at the larger picture, which is the lack of new marshals and retention of older ones. Some would argue that by taking a long time to achieve a grade, it puts people off marshalling. I think we have to strike a balance between keeping people in the sport and worrying about grading. Even of someone achieves a grade before the 'normal' time it would have taken under the old system, there will still never be a substitute for experience. After all, when you arrive at a circuit, you know the vast majority of the marshals there are 'old hands', and therein lies a part of our current problem.

Sticker Rub · 2 Dec 2006, 17:31 (Ref:1780407)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

XXXX number of days marshalling does not a Marshal make.
XXX+ number of days marshalling correctly under suitable observation may do.

I have to agree. As a newcomer to marshaling this season, I've done 7 days marshaling, & collected 2 training signatures (including fire) which under the new rules leaves me only 2 signatures short of upgrade to Track Marshal. One thing that I rapidly learnt in my first year is a great respect for the experienced marshals who took me under their wing & calmly showed me the ropes in situations where I would have been absolutely useless (& probably dangerous) on my own.

I've twice been on post without XOs & consequently not collected a signature but on both occasions had a quiet day & didn't really learn anything new so didn't feel like I'd "missed out". Under the new rules, I would collect the signatures just for being there but without gaining any experience.

Although I've learnt a lot this year, I'm in no hurry to get upgraded. I'll collect my signatures & upgrade when I'm confident I'm ready. I'm sure there are others who just want to collect signatures & upgrade & that is potentialy dangerous.

Dave Brand · 2 Dec 2006, 19:17 (Ref:1780451)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticker Rub

I've twice been on post without XOs & consequently not collected a signature but on both occasions had a quiet day & didn't really learn anything new so didn't feel like I'd "missed out". Under the new rules, I would collect the signatures just for being there but without gaining any experience.

Although I've learnt a lot this year, I'm in no hurry to get upgraded. I'll collect my signatures & upgrade when I'm confident I'm ready. I'm sure there are others who just want to collect signatures & upgrade & that is potentialy dangerous.

Under either the old or the new system the speed at which you upgrade is entirely in your hands. Although the new system will only require attendance signatures nobody is under any obligation to put their card in for a signature.

As for 'quiet' days - you can still be learning. If your post is quiet, watch what's going on on adjacent posts, ask questions about how incidents were handled, etc. Even just watching the racing can be part of the learning process - the ability to 'read' a race doesn't come naturally to all of us!

Sticker Rub · 2 Dec 2006, 20:10 (Ref:1780474)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

As for 'quiet' days - you can still be learning. If your post is quiet, watch what's going on on adjacent posts, ask questions about how incidents were handled, etc. Even just watching the racing can be part of the learning process - the ability to 'read' a race doesn't come naturally to all of us!

Good point! And I did of course learn in those ways, I just didn't gain any hands on experience which would help me to deal with incidents more safely. I did learn a lot from those quiet days & I wouldn't want my earlier comments to belittle the efforts of more experienced marshals who have always made me welcome & have always shared their knowledge & experience.

I've just reread details of the new scheme & I'd missed that there is also an assesment required to be awarded Track Marshal grade. I think this strikes a sensible balance to encourage trainees to progress while still having safeguards to prevent those with insufficient experience from putting themselves & others at risk.

MPA · 3 Dec 2006, 00:24 (Ref:1780579)

I'm very confused with CAMS efforts to improve the Aussie grading system.

There is a need to market the license? I'm not sure about this because most Circuit Promoters are demanding that all officials hold a license in order to sign on to work.

There is a need to insert a license level for club level events for marshals that don’t need the same grading as marshals that work at larger national and international events, however we now find ourselves colour coded in a more confusing scheme.

I like the plea from CAMS for us to take our time while filling in the eight page application form for a new license and that most of it does not need to be filled out if we can follow the instruction properly. Geeeeze there’s less work buying a mortgage.

MPA · 3 Dec 2006, 03:15 (Ref:1780623)

There are two issues that perplex me with our new system.

1. What happens if I’m a Gold Flagmarshal, a Bronze Trackmarshal and a Silver Communicator? Do I get some kind of alloy license? Perhaps I’ll only be a nine carat flaggy!

2. Can we ensure the health and safety of Fire Marshals that are graded from electrically conductive materials?

wensleydale · 3 Dec 2006, 10:19 (Ref:1780836)

I think I've found the fatal flaw in the plan. The new scheme seems focused on getting people upgraded sooner, however it'll still take just as long to get the grade. You may be getting signatures for turning up to the circuit, but you won't be able to get the training signatures. Unless the frequency of training sessions is improved the new system will make no difference, and if the frequency is improved then the old system will perform better too.

Dave Brand · 3 Dec 2006, 13:53 (Ref:1780943)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wensleydale

I think I've found the fatal flaw in the plan.

Fatal flaw or saving grace?

As I read it, a total of three training days will be needed to get to 'Experienced Track Marshal', so, time it right & it can be done by the start of the third season. That's plenty quick enough for a grade deemed to be equivalent to current blue/red.

Circuitmarshal · 3 Dec 2006, 15:46 (Ref:1780977)

How will the speed grading work, as in someone with years of sprint marshalling under their belt including the role of chief marshal and doing about 15 or more a year?
When doing a BARC hill climb I have had my card signed, but never at 100's of sprints over the years, as most of those years were brfore I started circuit marshalling.
How will they know what grade you start at?
Also what will rally grade 2 become?
Any one know yet?
If not I'll just wait.
Cheers.

CombeMarshal · 3 Dec 2006, 16:00 (Ref:1780985)

But I can't see it bringing more Marshals into the Sport, I had no Idea about grading when I started, I just wanted to do it, same as most people I know.

Circuitmarshal · 3 Dec 2006, 16:13 (Ref:1780987)

I didn't know about grading when I started, only when the club gave me a trainee's card and said you need to get it signed.

Now I have course grade I keep being asked when I'm going to up grade.
NEVER I'm here doing the job that's all I want.

Thank You!

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