Donington caterham crash

[dono_marshal]

As im new here I hope this hasnt been talked about before.
It has been mentioned in the racers section by alan but thought it could be chewed over by the marshals.
If you were at Donington this weekend you may know about the driver in the caterham race whos helmet fell of during an impact.
How in todays environment can this happen? Who is responsible and what can be done to stop this happening again? I know this is not the first time this has happened at Donington and has probably happened at other tracks around the UK, and the world.
Any ideas

[Andrew Palmer]

I have seen a helmet come off in an impact with the pit wall at Silverstone. The drive said to the observe on post when asked why it came off "I forgot to do it up". The other problem was the driver was wearing a red balaclava! Looked at a distance like massive bleeding from his skull.

[mark_l]

I know some drivers find that annoying strap thing under their chin puts them off so the they just tuck it inside the helmet whilst racing.

The only way a marshal can check is to grab the helmet and lift, if it comes off then it is not done up.

At the end of the day it is the drivers responsibility to make sure helmets are secured, after all it is their family that are going to have to care for them for the rest of their life if they get brain damaged by a poorly fitted/secured helmet.

[JohnMiller]

Originally posted by mark_l
I know some drivers find that annoying strap thing under their chin puts them off so the they just tuck it inside the helmet whilst racing

They must be barmy. I have very occasionally accidentally gone out without the strap fully tight - you soon notice in a single-seater as the wind tries to rip it off your head down the straights!

[PaulSands]

On a similar subject I noticed one Radical driver during the race with his visor wide open

[Sheila M]

Perhaps the mods could copy this thread onto the racers forum and see what answers they come up with?

It is sometimes very difficult to see when a helmet is properly fastened, especially now with the trend for wearing neck braces, which hide the helmet straps.

I agree with Mark_l's comments though - it is the driver's responsibility to ensure that his helmet, belts, overalls and visor are sorted before he goes onto the track.

[sss]

Originally posted by mark_l

after all it is their family that are going to have to care for them for the rest of their life if they get brain damaged by a poorly fitted/secured helmet.

but its us that have to clear up the mess afterwards and having done it a few times its not the nicest of thing to do in the world and you do remember these things for a very long time.

[Stevespurr]

Surely the safty of a driver is upto the driver and his team. Scruteneers pit lane and start line marshals have enough to do without checking everythink is done up before they go out, think of the extra time it would add on to a meeting!!!

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Stevespurr
Surely the safty of a driver is upto the driver and his team. Scruteneers pit lane and start line marshals have enough to do without checking everythink is done up before they go out, think of the extra time it would add on to a meeting!!!

Steve, you are right.

I would refer you all to Clause J.11 of the Blue Book -

"A driver shall throughout the competition:
11.1.1 Wear properly fastened and positioned:
(a) A crash helmet to a standard specified in the current Regulations and bearing an MSA approval sticker, which fits properly and is in a servicable condition (See Q.10)
(b) Goggles or visor of splinter-proof material (unless in a closed car with a full-size windscreen in use), sufficient to protect his eyes.
(c) Flame resistant overalls which shall cover arms, legs and the torso up to the neck. The use of flame resistant gloves, balaclava, socks, shoes and underwear is strongly recommended (See Q.9)"

The onus is therefore on the driver to make sure that he is properly clad but, sometimes it is necessary to remind them of their responsibilities. When they are in a rush to get out to practice or perhaps late for a session they may forget to carry out their usual checks on kit.

[johnw]

First, I trust that the Caterham driver is OK.
I just cannot see why anyone would deliberately undo, or fail to properly fasten the chinstrap. Perhaps in the heat of the moment,it might just get forgotten, but it surely would have to be an oversight.
If you are serious Mark, that people leave them off for comfort, I wouldn't want to be in a race with that sort of mentality.
Interesting to note the lack of replies to Alan's thread on the racers forum, but what would one reply?
Our coordinator and committee members, tend to check the drivers belts in the collecting area, especially when we have new drivers in the series, when mistakes could occur. I'll mention the helmet straps to them.
John

[EvilPumpkin]

I think it may be a matter of perception. The perception being "oh I'm wearing my helmet" and not realising/believing that it also has to be correctly fastened to be effective.

If this sounds unbelievable, think again. I have encountered drivers who think that, provided they have gloves IN the car, they don't need to wear them. That overalls with big holes in them will give them protection if the car goes on fire. Bikers who swap their pristine scrutiny approved helmets for some old piece of battered tat just before they go out on the track.....

And all of the above genuinely believe that they are as safe as someone who has all the correct equipment, undamaged and correctly worn.

They simply can't seem to understand owning the safety equipment isn't enough - it has to be properly maintained and used properly.

[RMR]

They simply can't seem to understand owning the safety equipment isn't enough - it has to be properly maintained and used properly.

can we stop this them and us scenario. 99% of drivers including myself spend alot of money and time making sure the car they race is safe. that goes for the equipment used on the driver too. I know of no one who would go out intentionally without helmet or belts etc undone. why would a driver do this? it doesnt make them go faster and could kill them. Like john said in a SS you cannot go out with the helmet undone as it gets sucked off you head.

can you please acknowledge drivers who dont care on there or other drivers safety are in the minority!

thanks
Richard

[petestenning]

Richard, i am sure that we are not suggesting every
driver or even one would leave their helmet unfastened on purpose. We are trying to understand why such incidents would happen, as it is in all our interests to make racing, our sport, as safe as possible.
I have also had experience of a helmet being felt as though it is being pulled off, and knowing that it is fastened.
As it is not nice when as a marshal you see a helmet come off, anything we can do to help eliminate this happening has to be a good thing.

Regards
Pete

[ascarracinguk]

hi i marshalled this post......14....a backmarker spun....went broadside across the track and another car came flying around the corner and clobbered him at full pelt...luckily we had spotted the driver without a helmet and he became are first concern....while the IO and other marshal went to treat him i got to the other car whos fuel tan had split and the contents of which were on the floor......luckily there was no fire....otherwise it would have been a huge mess.....both drivers were ok...a little dazed and confused but the got out on their own, i have to say though iwas very greatful and thankful at the other drivers behaviour when i crosseed the track when they were still racing because of the fuel...the car was right on the apex but all the drivers slowed down and stopped until i gave them the OK to go around the car....i think we and the drivers handled the situation pretty well considering that we only had 3 people.....it was a very hard impact and the drivers were lucky to walk away.....

[Stephen Green]

Oooops, I moved the thread top the wrong forum. Bear with me for a sec as I try to get it moved to the Racers Forum.

Silly me...sorry folks.

[JimW]

I don't know anything about the chap at Donington so this is a general point.

I don't normally marshal in positions which allow me to see/check whether drivers are kitted out correctly but a couple of years ago I was standing around at the start of a promenade sprint. Chatting to the drivers in the queue and looking at the splendid historic machinery, I noticed that a driver had the helmet strap done up wrongly. It was a ’D’ ring type where the strap goes through both rings and then back through just one.

His went through both rings and that was all.

Having done it up for him he explained that he was a novice (aged about 70) and this was his first event. I then checked every one and found (from memory) about 20 with the helmet not correctly fastened.

Scary. None of them seemed to be deliberate (as I have know rally drivers try) so here were 20 mature and sensible people failing to RTFM* or ask or have experienced support.

Regards

Jim

*Read The Fancy Manual

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by RMR
can we stop this them and us scenario. 99% of drivers including myself spend alot of money and time making sure the car they race is safe. that goes for the equipment used on the driver too. I know of no one who would go out intentionally without helmet or belts etc undone. why would a driver do this? it doesnt make them go faster and could kill them. Like john said in a SS you cannot go out with the helmet undone as it gets sucked off you head.

can you please acknowledge drivers who dont care on there or other drivers safety are in the minority!

thanks
Richard

Richard, it is not a case of "them and us" in the way you mean - but there's no point me me saying "We" when I'm not a driver really now is there.

All the examples I gave there are things I have witnessed personally. Of course I do not check every single driver that goes out on every single circuit in Ireland and the UK - I was simply trying to point out that there is rarely any deliberate intention to do something unsafe - it's more an assumption about how the equipment works and a slightly casual attitude to it.

However, if you prefer to take offence rather than discuss then fine - no driver ever does anything unsafe and I'm just some silly idiot with nothing better to do telling lies.

[Peter Mallett]

Can't beleive anybody would deliberately go out with his/her helmet undine. However things can get forgotten and we are all human in that respect. I once drove down the pitlane at Mallory in practice only wearing my balaclava? Stopped when I ralised just before the red lights.

Appreciate that our friends on the banking don't need the added aggravation of clearing up bits of skull but as I said we are all fallable.

[RMR]

i haven't taken offence, i simple offered what i thought of the subject in my opinion and believed the context in which you were writing to be a little to generalised. I obviously have offended you or have taken something personally, judging from your response and therefore apologise. i also imo dont think your reply warranted the attitude you displayed. i always feel like a fish out of water in the marshaling forum??? ps.i am genuinely grateful to the hard work you guys all do. probably see you some time this year!

[EvilPumpkin]

That's not how it reads to me I'm afraid. The way it reads to me is "drivers are being attacked" and the imputation is that at least some of the comments are untrue.

It's quite clear from my post that I'm simply referring to the drivers/riders that I have personally encountered in terms of this topic and my take on what I felt the issue was - and immediately I get accused of "us and them" and trying to portray all drivers in a bad light.

It seems to me that whenever we try to have a genuine discussion about a safety issue there's always a bunch of people who feel that a small discussion about a limited group of people must automatically be targetted at everyone in the wider group.

If you feel like a fish out of water in the marshals forum, it's probably because you tend to assume that what is happening is some attack on driver-dom - instead of what it really is which is an exchange of experience and ideas between work colleagues.

We all know that the vast majority of drivers are not offenders in any of the areas we discuss. We don't need to say so because it's automatically assumed in any discussion. Whilst it is brilliant when non-marshals of any kind come in and join our discussions, it has to be accepted that it is a marshals forum.

No-one goes into the Formula One forum expecting every single thread to list the 2004 driver line up - why? Because it's assumed that the forum is for people interested in F1. No-one goes into Parc Ferme and expects every discussion to contain a disclaimer stating it's not necessarily about Motorsport.

So why should every marshal discussion carry a disclaimer saying "warning - may not apply to 99% of drivers"?

Please do come and join in the marshal discussions - driver perspectives are always more than welcome and can give us an insight we wouldn't necessarily get otherwise - but read them twice before assuming that all drivers are being accused of something. Because they never are.

And now, back to the discussion!

[JimW]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Can't beleive anybody would deliberately go out with his/her helmet undine. However things can get forgotten and we are all human in that respect. . . .

And I forgot to add the tale of the chap who appeared with us at the top of Loton Park hillclimb without his helmet.

Not quite sure who was more embarrassed, him or the startline.


Regards

Jim

[Andrew Hornsey]

I know that it is a different scenario, but as someone that works every day with up to 350 drivers going through the door, I see how difficult this situation is every day.

As has been posted, human beings make mistakes, and I am sure that 99.9% of people that do not fasten their helmets correctly have done just that - made a mistake.

There are a small minority, however, that use excuses like "I don't like the strap too tight". How many people drive without a seatbelt, or as in my case smoke. We know these things can harm us, yet we still do it.

The ONLY way to stop this happening, is to have a dedicated person checking every single driver before they leave the pit lane - and in my experience this is still not going to elinimate those that undo the helmet after the check, or help in endurance races where there are multiple drivers.

We can get near to the 100%, but I don't see how we can ever get to the magical 100%.

Andrew

[Peter Mallett]

I've got an interesting problem. I've lost the feeling in the tip of my right thumb. This is the thumb I use to pull my chin/throat strap. It's bloody inconvenient! Also the type of strap on my OMP helmet is quite stiff whilst on my old Simpson it was flexible and easier to thread.

So just a thought here. It is possible to think you've done the strap up tight but you haven't "looped" it correctly and as you drive around it slips out.

[Neptune]

I have found myself on the track twice w/ helmet strap not fastened. I used to slip my helmet on to go from my paddock to the grid, just to keep dirt from getting in my eyes in an open car. After the 2nd time, I made a decision that whenever I put the helmet on, even to just get to the grid, I go ahead and loop the strap through the buckels. I my not pull the strap tight, but all I have to do is tug on it and its done. That way I can't forget while I'm on the grid. This is just a part of my mental "get ready to race" checklist, every time I get into the car. Not a bad rule for every driver to adopt!

Roger

[acf8181]

as a fellow driver, i have to say i am surprised that anyone could forget to do up their helmet properly, or that people can drive with them done up (relatively) loosly. i like my helmet (and belts) done up extremely tight, so tight it almost hurts, as b the time your racing they'll be just right then, and the helmet won't wobble around in the airflow.

would i be right in saying it's more common for club drivers to be found with undone chin straps? no offence intended, but i can't see an f3 driver not doin it up properly.