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Old 19 Jun 2009, 01:20 (Ref:2486293)   #51
TWK
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FOTA's own revisions to the 1998 Concorde agreement is the outline of how they will work together (much like many other sports). There's a chance we'll see racing rather than a damn green engineering lab. KERS is idiotic at this point.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 01:32 (Ref:2486297)   #52
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Where is Mr Bernie Ecclestone, do we know? Do we care.....
“If they come in here with a gun and hold it to my head, they had better be sure they can f***ing pull the trigger. And they should make sure it’s got bullets in it because, if they miss, they better look out.”

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FOTA's own revisions to the 1998 Concorde agreement is the outline of how they will work together (much like many other sports). There's a chance we'll see racing rather than a damn green engineering lab. KERS is idiotic at this point.
I think it'll either be quietly dropped or they'll come up with a standard KERS - as Williams have one under development, I'd have thought they'd be hot favourites for that (if they stay in F1, obviously)
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 01:34 (Ref:2486299)   #53
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I don't see how teams can effectively run a motor racing championship without the inevitable clashes, hissy fits and taking of the ball elsewhere. Max should indeed go and should've gone a long time ago, but the solution is to push him off his throne instead of running away to create a new throne with a few more jewels in it

It needs impartiality. The double decker diffuser argument just proved that although the teams love each other now, when it's about the racing, they'll do what they want to do and they'll act selfishly. Any innovations will be banned in this way, especially if they're made by a privateer team
yes, that's the whole point really isnt it - a self managed sport by the competing teams? i dont see that as possible.

Historically, the power brokers of f1 have counterbalanced the powers of the teams. And whilst it goes a bit wobbly from time to time, it tends to stay somewhat balanced to a common line between the 2 separate interest groups.

So really, in a FOTA series, there will need to be a counterbalance of management to keep things stable, and avoid the hissy fits of which you speak. The details are very sparse, but really this is just an announcement from the teams that they're looking for a new bride to be more competent than their current partner, who has an overinflated opinion of their worth.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 01:50 (Ref:2486305)   #54
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I can't wait to see the 2010 F1 entry list, I bet they are scrambling to find 13 REAL entries... I am glad FOTA did this, if Mosley and Bernie don't blink now they are fools.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 01:59 (Ref:2486309)   #55
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I think this is good. I do not hate Max and Bernie. I do think that participating teams, as in many other sport leagues should control their own destiny, and I do not think any sport needs some top-heavy burearcracy to siphon off millions and millions, to award its events to the highest bidder without regard for its fan base, and on and on.

I guess I am an absolute fool...and proud of it.
This isn't a clean switch of power though, that's the point I tried to make. Max, Bernie and FOTA will all do massive damage to each other, financially and reputation wise. What ever is left after this battle may not have been worth fighting for. What will FOTA do if their championship doesn't prove to be as popular as F1 is now? The FIA and FOM will be left with a servilely weakened F1, FOTA will have something that can never be F1, in name, or arguably, as a product.

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This is essentially going to be a series run by manufacturers and corporations. The DTM is riddled with politics and has only 2 manufacturers. Ditto the WRC. The WSC collapsed because it was heavily relied upon by manufacturers, even if Mosley pulled the rug from underneath it to a certain extent

I don't see how teams can effectively run a motor racing championship
There are so many case studies that show this will not work; CART vs IRL and the subsequent collapse of open wheel racing in the States, manufacturer overpowerment which ruined the DTM/ITCC, WRC & WTCC and basically destroyed Supertouring and nearly did the same to Sportcar racing on a number of occassion, and finally, the power of the FIA and it's ability to bring down who it likes, such as the Wold Sportcar Championship and arguably the WRC. The ACO aren't very trusting of the FIA anymore.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:05 (Ref:2486311)   #56
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I note that the teams have "declined to alter their conditional entries"... in other words, they haven't actually withdrawn their entries. The teams are leaving a door wide open for the FIA to come back with a revised deal. Brinkmanship at it's best.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:22 (Ref:2486314)   #57
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I think this next step (breakaway statement) was necessary and inevitable for the FOTA to be taken seriously by the FIA. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that is what FOTA wants. What it wants is to race for the FIA Formula One Championship because you know what, it's the only one that counts. Teams come and go but FIA and Formula One will always remain. I predict FOTA will fold. The drivers are kidding themselves to think they would rather race in a new championship run under their own rules while other drivers will race for the World Championship. We only consider them the best because they are in F1. If the Hamiltons Massas Alonsos raced in say A1GP would we consider them the best drivers in the world? Don't think so. Would they consider themselves the best? Don't think so. F1 folks. If you want to be the best team or best driver you need to be in F1. FOTA wont even get off the ground due to the lawyers anyway. Bernie E has been around the block more than once. You will see. In the end common sense will prevail and there will be a compromise.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:27 (Ref:2486316)   #58
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I am so convinced that this is not going to happen I would stake my life on it..
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:29 (Ref:2486317)   #59
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Now the question is what tracks will go with the FOTA?
This is a very important point. Will classic F1 tracks return or will the rich govts continue to buy GPs and take them from the U.S. and Canada.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:42 (Ref:2486319)   #60
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I think this next step (breakaway statement) was necessary and inevitable for the FOTA to be taken seriously by the FIA. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that is what FOTA wants. What it wants is to race for the FIA Formula One Championship because you know what, it's the only one that counts. Teams come and go but FIA and Formula One will always remain. I predict FOTA will fold. The drivers are kidding themselves to think they would rather race in a new championship run under their own rules while other drivers will race for the World Championship. We only consider them the best because they are in F1. If the Hamiltons Massas Alonsos raced in say A1GP would we consider them the best drivers in the world? Don't think so. Would they consider themselves the best? Don't think so. F1 folks. If you want to be the best team or best driver you need to be in F1. FOTA wont even get off the ground due to the lawyers anyway. Bernie E has been around the block more than once. You will see. In the end common sense will prevail and there will be a compromise.
Flick of the wrist.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 02:44 (Ref:2486320)   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peralta View Post
I think this next step (breakaway statement) was necessary and inevitable for the FOTA to be taken seriously by the FIA. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that is what FOTA wants. What it wants is to race for the FIA Formula One Championship because you know what, it's the only one that counts. Teams come and go but FIA and Formula One will always remain. I predict FOTA will fold. The drivers are kidding themselves to think they would rather race in a new championship run under their own rules while other drivers will race for the World Championship. We only consider them the best because they are in F1. If the Hamiltons Massas Alonsos raced in say A1GP would we consider them the best drivers in the world? Don't think so. Would they consider themselves the best? Don't think so. F1 folks. If you want to be the best team or best driver you need to be in F1. FOTA wont even get off the ground due to the lawyers anyway. Bernie E has been around the block more than once. You will see. In the end common sense will prevail and there will be a compromise.
Bernie, is that you?
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 03:11 (Ref:2486324)   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Thread Article
"Following these efforts all the teams have confirmed to the FIA and the commercial rights holder that they are willing to commit until the end of 2012."
This sentence of the quotation of FOTA's statement was presented in a confusing manner, for me. It almost suggests they have committed to 2012, but the interpretation that makes sense would seem to imply that the new series would be for 2010.

Anyway, if indeed this is a proposal for a new series in 2010, and that all 8 teams are behind this, well, it is a good thing that the "threat" is there now. His Royal Shortness needs to have a sleepless night or two.

I am skeptical that anything other than a compromise will occur, but if it does actually end in a split, then I am OK with that. I think the FOTA effort would be doomed to destruction by their own hand in the end, but the ensuing mess might force a change in the way the F1 side operates.

Let us suppose both F1 and FOTA Series ultimately exist, and both end. I would imagine another series will take the place (be it a new one, or, more likely, an already existing one [like GP2, say] filling the vacuum.

I just think that the way F1 functions is poor, and getting worse. Bernie's agenda is driving the sport into oblivion in the long run, so something has to change. Let it be this, I say.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 03:33 (Ref:2486330)   #63
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so many angles of this to look and comment on.......

personally, I have issue with Mosley and his personal life given his position; along with others dislike the money only aspect of countries with oodles of cash to spend on empty stands looking on yet another Tilke track; and then can't see how a two tiered system would be practical and can understand the manufacturers frrustration with it

all that said, wonder how all the legal schmegal stuff would be worked out--of rights for tv, rights for a given track tohave a F1 race for x years, practical concerns for making sure tracks have proper safety stuff set up--a whole mess of issues that is taken care of by the FIA and Mr. Moneybags....just dont see how the FOTA could properly take care of all this without the infighting etc.

I guess I am too in the camp that this isn't really what anyone wants and I have to agree with Bononi with the Mosley coup taking place, and/or a compromise taking place in any case.

sure as heck made for a neat headline though didnt it?
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 03:58 (Ref:2486334)   #64
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EERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
No good will come of this.

Max, Bernie, FOTA, Sir Frank, they are all screwing up a good thing.

It seems in all of this that some fundamental ideas have been forgotten.

The Fans should come first. The rules have gotten convoluted and arcane. Max is a tyrant. Bernie is greedy. The teams waste money. The tracks are boring. Racing is being promoted into markets that cannot fill the stands. Historic venues are being abandoned.

Yet despite this we have seen some amazing racing over the past few years.

If the FIA and FOTA do not compromise, I fear that the damage done will be as bad as it has been for CART and the IRL.

It's all rather depressing.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 04:07 (Ref:2486336)   #65
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Has anyone here read this article?
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php

A quick summary

Apparently back in the 1970's the teams unified under FOCA (Formula One Constructors Association) to break away from FISA (Federation Internationale du Sport Automobile) They thought as they the teams were spending all the money, they should have a say in the rules and regulations along with getting a bigger slice of the revenue.
The FOCA was led by two team owners...... guess who..... Max and Bernie.

By the 1980's a battle started between FISA and FOCA, ending in FOCA forming a sort of break away series.
The two ringleaders (Max and Bernie) got the positions of president of FIA for Max and Commercial rights holder for Bernie.

Its all just happening again.
You'd think Bernie and Max would understand what the teams are on about..... by the sounds of it they were doing the same thing themselves 25-30 years ago!!
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 04:48 (Ref:2486344)   #66
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I hope FOTA go full steam ahead. Mosley is in a very weak position. His new paper tiger teams will find it very hard to setup without technical assistance from the existing teams.

The best teams, drivers, sponsors will all be in FOTA, and that is what people will watch and consider to be the World Championship. Mosley's F1 will last a season at most, if it happens at all. It won't drag on like Champcar and IRL did, as it was a much more even split.

The car manufacturers want to use the sport as a marketing tool to sell cars. It is therefore implicit that they will treat fans as customers, unlike Mosley and Ecclestone who are primarily concerned with their own power.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 04:58 (Ref:2486347)   #67
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Can Cosworth supply 10 teams with engines in '10?
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 05:04 (Ref:2486348)   #68
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Can Cosworth supply 10 teams with engines in '10?
For the right price, anything can be done.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 05:14 (Ref:2486350)   #69
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Has anyone here read this article?
Oh yeah a couple of days ago : http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....0&postcount=12
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 05:38 (Ref:2486353)   #70
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Well, Jeremy you know from where you heard about it first, why, how and when...

This is just so much fun...
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 05:54 (Ref:2486354)   #71
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Prodrive 2010 F1 champions?
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 06:28 (Ref:2486367)   #72
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If only Aston had put the effort into the DBR4 when roadsters still had things their way.

As it stands, they're a manufacturer with no F1 heritage to speak of; they belong in sportscars.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 06:37 (Ref:2486370)   #73
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This is exactly what Mosley wanted: a Formula 1 without the manufactures and all teams using a (de facto) spec engine. Next year Formula 1 will have about six teams all having to use the very same Cosworth engine. Nice perspective!
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 06:38 (Ref:2486371)   #74
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I hope FOTA go full steam ahead. Mosley is in a very weak position. .
Not so weak IMo; for instance he can blackmail the track hosting fota events, preventing any FIA series (WSR, F3, F2, FIA GT, LMS etc) from being hosted at those tracks; it could mean that hosting FOTa races could be not so convenient.

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His new paper tiger teams will find it very hard to setup without technical assistance from the existing teams.
Don't think so: fota teams have been downsizing in the last few months, and a lot of experienced people are looking for a job in the 2010 F1

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The car manufacturers want to use the sport as a marketing tool to sell cars. It is therefore implicit that they will treat fans as customers, unlike Mosley and Ecclestone who are primarily concerned with their own power.
No more; the fota series is clearly meant to make profits itself, regardless it helps sell cars or not; the manufacturers aim at getting the 100% of the commercial and TV rights, that are currently mostly enjoyed by Bernie.
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Old 19 Jun 2009, 06:39 (Ref:2486372)   #75
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This is exactly what Mosley wanted: a Formula 1 without the manufactures and all teams using a (de facto) spec engine. Next year Formula 1 will have about six teams all having to use the very same Cosworth engine. Nice perspective!
When F1 expressed its best, there were two engines: Ferrari and Cosworth
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