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Old 14 May 2019, 06:58 (Ref:3903635)   #26
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Simple rule - if you can't field at least 16 cars then you either don't start , or you become a class in another race. I have rarely , if ever, in 50 years of watching live motor sport seen such a charade as Britcar and TCR 'races' with a handful of cars each but an absurdly misplaced sense of self importance . Utterly risible ,and any newcomer to live sport would never return .
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Old 14 May 2019, 07:10 (Ref:3903638)   #27
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Simple rule - if you can't field at least 16 cars then you either don't start , or you become a class in another race.
By that logic, should the 2005 BTCC championship have been abandoned, or become a class in another race?
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Old 14 May 2019, 08:53 (Ref:3903652)   #28
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By that logic, should the 2005 BTCC championship have been abandoned, or become a class in another race?
Yes, one or the other...
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Old 14 May 2019, 09:36 (Ref:3903659)   #29
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By that logic, should the 2005 BTCC championship have been abandoned, or become a class in another race?
Yes, it would have been a powerful message tothe sport/ industry.
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:36 (Ref:3903678)   #30
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Yes, one or the other...
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Yes, it would have been a powerful message tothe sport/ industry.
In my mind, that would have been a very short sighted approach to the situation.

The grid size went up to mid-20's for the next few seasons, which would never have happened if the 'powerful message' had been sent.

Small grids are not necessarily a bad thing, provided the series remains sustainable. The main thing to look at is what plans are in place to raise the level of competition across a grid, rather than just pure numbers.

Take F1, where it currently faces criticism for a number of reasons. I have also heard similar criticism from many people at BTCC events during the Porsche races. It is not just about the numbers, but about the competitive nature of the racing that makes a series worthwhile.
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Old 14 May 2019, 12:45 (Ref:3903692)   #31
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I've always advocated that you shouldn't have more laps/minutes of practice than you have cars on the grid (excepting endurance races which shall have a minimum of 20 or half the number of cars as minutes racing up to the maximum capacity of the grid - that last may need modifying).

So 6 car grid, 6 mins qualifying, 6 laps. If you want more, find someone to play with.
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Old 14 May 2019, 14:02 (Ref:3903701)   #32
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re numbers.

. I have also heard similar criticism from many people at BTCC events during the Porsche races. It is not just about the numbers, but about the competitive nature of the racing that makes a series worthwhile.

Yup - nothing like a handful of 911s droning round for 30 minutes , a dutiful two seconds apart, with the poor commentator trying to inject some excitement into the so called 'battle ' for each place . Which rarely ends up with car A overtaking car B.

Compare and contrast a typical HSCC FF1600 race ...
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Old 14 May 2019, 14:15 (Ref:3903705)   #33
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Unfortunately, on a forum like this, we are bound to be surrounded by like-minded (in some respects!) motor-sport enthusiasts, but unfortunately, in general terms, I think that 'enthusiasts' are drastically reducing in numbers, so there are less people around to 'feed' the sport.
I’m in my sixties now, but when I was a youngster, I was fanatical about cars and subsequently became interested in motor-sport, of all kinds, with any number and combination of wheels, and along with many like-minded mates have travelled the country (and further) to enjoy watching our passion, be it club racing at Mallory Park, a Grand Prix, night rally, motorcycles or whatever. I have raced myself, helped mates with their race cars & bikes and many years ago even left my job in engineering to join a racing team.
Alongside all of this we were also modifying/tuning our road cars/bike (and driving/riding them way too fast on the road!) as part of our ‘enthusiasm’, being petrol-heads.
From what I’ve seen, the sort of enthusiasm we had doesn’t seem so wide-spread nowadays, not so many young lads (and lasses) appear to be petrol-heads nowadays so I presume (apart from the major meetings) the circuits don’t get the volume of spectators that there used to be, so less gate receipts>
Another factor in the decline of that is that we all appear to be so much busier now than we were when I was a youth. Everybody’s spare time seems to be taken up with more pastimes, reducing the possibilities of a casual spectator going to a circuit at the weekend and becoming hooked on the sport we all love. (I remember when Sunday shopping only consisted of buying a paper, some sweets and ciggies, motor-racing didn’t have to compete with the lure of shopping centres!)
Finally, we come back to the problem of poorly supported race series, not providing a spectacle, to entertain spectators. Maybe there are too many vested interests with different clubs wanting to keep their own series to themselves (I am guessing here, I honestly don’t know), there certainly appears to be a huge variety of different series now than they were and I agree, that combining races would make things better for the (few) spectators, and really for the competitors, as they should have a better chance of finding someone else to compete against in a full grid (if the combined races are well matched) than they would with only 5 cars.
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Old 14 May 2019, 17:45 (Ref:3903762)   #34
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It is not just about the numbers, but about the competitive nature of the racing that makes a series worthwhile.
Agreed. A small-ish grid is OK if the racing is close. On the other hand, a larger grid split into charity classes is bad. For example, the Ginetta GT4 Supercup has a 20 car field this year, yet it is split into Pro (is there such a thing in single make racing?) and Am. This would be fine if there was an overall championship with an Am sub-class, but the series is split into two completely separate points classifications, despite the cars all being identical. The Carrera Cup takes this further by having a smaller field split into THREE "classes". Honestly, who is going to care about the outcome of such a competition? It is stupid beyond belief and shouldn't be allowed to happen. This is MOTOR racing, not life choices racing.
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Old 15 May 2019, 11:22 (Ref:3903889)   #35
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Simply put for club racing it should be free for punters.

Circuits need to knock admission on the head to try and push more people into meetings. they only charge it to make a few quid. no need for tickets, people taking money, programs, it could all be online, removing the staff that deal with it.

They will say you still have to have security and cleaners and some staff, fair enough but are you seriously telling me 100 or so people paying a tenner at an average clubby really impacts that? That's a grand a few times a year!

If you made it free, you could then get more people in, and make the money in other ways.

It has never really been done so they don't know otherwise, they are just too greedy, like most people involved in the sport other than fans and competitors.
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:31 (Ref:3903935)   #36
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Good point well made. Remember The Sun free race days many years back? And the World Series by Renault? Free race meetings well promoted and heaving with eager punters.

Many years ago Howard Strawford at Combe said races were around 50 per cent too long. Half the race time, double the number of races he said. He understood what customers wanted. I haven't been to Combe for many years, but under his stewardship the place was often bursting at the seams.

However, the flip side of that is it begs the question: who is racing for? Spectators? Then tell drivers what to drive and keep the race fees low. The drivers? Then forget the spectators and concentrate on maximum value from the track time.

Difficult balance.

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Old 15 May 2019, 14:48 (Ref:3903963)   #37
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I certainly wouldnt want half the race time & double the number of races.
I wsnt VfM and thats why CSCC 40 min races and 750 Roadsports/ Club Enduro or even the C1 endurance races are so popular.
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Old 15 May 2019, 15:32 (Ref:3903966)   #38
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[QUOTE=chunder;3903889]Simply put for club racing it should be free for punters.

Circuits need to knock admission on the head to try and push more people into meetings. they only charge it to make a few quid. no need for tickets, people taking money, programs, it could all be online, removing the staff that deal with it.

They will say you still have to have security and cleaners and some staff, fair enough but are you seriously telling me 100 or so people paying a tenner at an average clubby really impacts that? That's a grand a few times a year!

If you made it free, you could then get more people in, and make the money in other ways.QUOTE ]


Not often we agree but you are bang on the money here - as it were. I don't mind paying for the big ticket stuff but somewhere like Croft will charge £15 for thin grids , crap food and a general air of ennui .Maybe my cash pays towards the army of entirely unnecessary 'security ' staff...?



Last week I paid a tenner for great day at Harewood ,with runs from 9-5, good food and friendly people. Today I have bought a weekend pass for HSCC Cadwell for twenty quid and that's fine . But 15 quid to watch fewer than a dozen TCRs drone round endlessly for an afternoon ? Get outta here- I'm the one who wants paying to sit through that rubbish.
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Old 15 May 2019, 19:26 (Ref:3904020)   #39
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I certainly wouldnt want half the race time & double the number of races.

I wsnt VfM and thats why CSCC 40 min races and 750 Roadsports/ Club Enduro or even the C1 endurance races are so popular.
Which is exactly my point. Whereas I've seen many spectators bemoaning 40 minutes races and turning away.



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Old 15 May 2019, 19:40 (Ref:3904023)   #40
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Which is exactly my point. Whereas I've seen many spectators bemoaning 40 minutes races and turning away.



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Club racing is the equivalent of Sunday league football or club golf. I class myself as a 14 handicap golfer and a 24 handicap racing driver so why anyone would pay to watch me race is beyond me. That said, the big difference is that the cars are the stars and there is still good/ exciting racing to be seen, even if it isn’t the fastest or the most skilful. Fast isn’t necessarily good!

Circuits are expensive pieces of real estate to run but in most cases at club level, the club hiring the circuit has paid for the costs of running the event. It would certainly be interesting to see what happens if a circuit or two decided (and made it known) that events below BTCC/ British Superbikes or British GT level had free access and free parking for spectators, but tried to make money from programmes, concessions, food etc.
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Old 15 May 2019, 20:21 (Ref:3904031)   #41
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I agree as it happens. But I've been on Forums where spectators have laid into organisers for putting on long races. My answer has always been - when you pay more to get in than I pay in entry fees, you can dictate the races. Until then put up with my old MG and like it

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Old 15 May 2019, 20:23 (Ref:3904032)   #42
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I agree as it happens. But I've been on Forums where spectators have laid into organisers for putting on long races. My answer has always been - when you pay more to get in than I pay in entry fees, you can dictate the races. Until then put up with my old MG and like it

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Agree!
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Old 15 May 2019, 21:47 (Ref:3904039)   #43
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I think it is pretty obvious what club racing is for and it is certainly not for spectators. Not to have to pay for anyway.

You never used to have to pay to watch at club rallies until the entire sport for spectators was decimated by insurance and health and safety fears, and they survived pretty well. And that is far less safe as we found out a few years ago, and the sport at club level will never be the same again for speccys, notwithstanding the assistance they provided for crews and marshals I might add.

It is to keep the MSA alive with coffers from safety courses and entry fees, clubs with entry fees and circuits receiving fees from clubs.

Most tracks make far more from track days then they ever will from club racing I would think.

Club racing is only fun as a fan if you know someone racing, or perhaps for me if there are interesting cars on the grid. I would not expect to pay to watch Mr2's or MX5's racing and see perhaps 3 or 4 corners when i could pay a few quid more and see short oval racing where I can see everything, the recovery is far quicker, races are run better and more fluidly, the pits are just behind me and the meeting is done in 4 or 5 hours.

Make it free for speccys, it's that simple.
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Old 16 May 2019, 19:07 (Ref:3904199)   #44
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Just for info - got the Finals for CSCC at Oulton over the Bank Holiday weekend and there are over 300 entries....


Should be a pdf attached
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File Type: pdf Entry List Oulton Park printed 16 05 2019.pdf (203.5 KB, 10 views)
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Old 16 May 2019, 21:35 (Ref:3904224)   #45
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Two cars for the BARC tin tops at Brands on Sunday, 6 junior Fiestas at Cadwell, 7 MX5s at Pembrey. The list is quite depressing, but as discussed above it is unlikely to change.
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Old 17 May 2019, 06:55 (Ref:3904290)   #46
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Just for info - got the Finals for CSCC at Oulton over the Bank Holiday weekend and there are over 300 entries....


Should be a pdf attached
And let's think why CSCC works - which it undoubtedly does .

- 40minute races , so two drivers can share car and costs

- multi class races - no spec nonsense - so even the Mag Sevens feature not only 'real' Caterhams , but you can run an MK Indy or a Westfield , and you can run Duratec, K , Sigma or bike engine (etc)

- massive diversity of cars - from Smarts to Corvettes , Meganes to Cortinas, TVRs to Civics - and from 50s to noughties

- winner penalty . I am not keen on any handicapping but have to admit it works here

- no championship. Just busy racing weekends

Meanwhile, despite the obvious lessons from the above , I'm sure some idiot is already planning yet another single make series for 2020. It will only get 6 entries for its first race (despite the volume of PR hype ) and by September it'll be down to three and it'll finally sink beneath the waves before December ...
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Old 17 May 2019, 07:29 (Ref:3904294)   #47
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And let's think why CSCC works - which it undoubtedly does .

- 40minute races , so two drivers can share car and costs

- multi class races - no spec nonsense - so even the Mag Sevens feature not only 'real' Caterhams , but you can run an MK Indy or a Westfield , and you can run Duratec, K , Sigma or bike engine (etc)

- massive diversity of cars - from Smarts to Corvettes , Meganes to Cortinas, TVRs to Civics - and from 50s to noughties

- winner penalty . I am not keen on any handicapping but have to admit it works here

- no championship. Just busy racing weekends

Meanwhile, despite the obvious lessons from the above , I'm sure some idiot is already planning yet another single make series for 2020. It will only get 6 entries for its first race (despite the volume of PR hype ) and by September it'll be down to three and it'll finally sink beneath the waves before December ...
Should point out that in most cases the diversity of cars is managed so that Smarts aren’t in the same race as the Corvettes, or the Megane’s in the same race as the Cortina's! They are sperated by eras - 60s, 70s etc

Plus, one big thing is that driving standards are good and well policed, and the club is well rum.
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Old 17 May 2019, 09:48 (Ref:3904321)   #48
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- winner penalty . I am not keen on any handicapping but have to admit it works here
Personally I think that is one of the reasons why it so successful. A mate of mine has just signed up in preference to the MSV TT series because of that rule.

In series with very open technical regs it can easily be dominated by those with the biggest cheque books and resources without a rule like that.

IMO that's what kills a lot of series of. Someone comes in and dominates, the club either changes the rules which sees a lot of people get the hump and leave or they leave things as they are and the cost of competing goes up and up with the "bottom" end leaving.

I'm always amazed at the lengths people will go to win a plastic trophy and then brag about it on their social media accounts often when the car they are driving is four times more expensive than the others in class.

Sorry bit of a rant there!
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Old 17 May 2019, 10:01 (Ref:3904322)   #49
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No, no - you are absolutely right.


My inner purist raises its snooty eyebrows at the very idea of handicaps. BoP and weight penalty.


But my inner pragmatist acknowledges that , in practice, the CSCC model works really well .
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Old 18 May 2019, 11:38 (Ref:3904497)   #50
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The problem you have though is try and get any speccy anywhere interested in watching a 40 minute race at a club meeting.

AS I say, it should be free, great idea doing that for drivers, and let's face it these meetings exists SOLELY for them. But expecting people to pay and watch that all day is stupid really.

Yes, some folk will be happy, but then again people watch trains, airliners, stand at trucks parks and watch lorries.

Talking of Smarts, I watched a race at Mallory last year where they were allowed and to be honest it was ludicrous, they were mobile chicanes and made the racing extremely dangerous. I am all for people getting out there, but let's be serious here, that is not racing, that is desperation.
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