[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

why not monetize your development program?

Because it makes a mockery of your ability to actually test.

In Abu Dhabi Nissany was 4.0 s (!!) off Latifi who is thought to be at least 1.0 s off himself.

Taking a test driver who has been at the back in pretty much everything he has ever raced is not going to help you improve the worst car on the grid by some margin.

[chillibowl]

well i was more thinking development driver rather than testing/reserve driver...so strictly simulator and behind the scenes kind of thing.

but...

Originally Posted by peebee2

Because it makes a mockery of your ability to actually test.

In Abu Dhabi Nissany was 4.0 s (!!) off Latifi who is thought to be at least 1.0 s off himself.

Taking a test driver who has been at the back in pretty much everything he has ever raced is not going to help you improve the worst car on the grid by some margin.

does it really though?

10-15 years ago i might have also argued about the importance of real world testing. one needs to corroborate the windtunnel data with the real world and the quality of your test/reserve driver really made a difference.

but now days with limited testing (aside from winter all of it happens during a GP weekend - or the two days after- in front of fans), limited number of engines (where most teams cant afford extra engines anyways), and a big eye on cost control that type of testing is long gone and not going to return.

technology has allowed teams to move away from the old model. this is, frankly, an area of the sport which is increasingly become less and less important both to the teams and spectators.

so yeah, i dont think the test driver matters much and certainly not as much as it used to.

i know this because literally no one gives Ocon the credit for winning Merc's two titles this year.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

10-15 years ago i might have also argued about the importance of real world testing. one needs to corroborate the windtunnel data with the real world and the quality of your test/reserve driver really made a difference.

but now days with limited testing (aside from winter all of it happens during a GP weekend - or the two days after- in front of fans), limited number of engines (where most teams cant afford extra engines anyways), and a big eye on cost control that type of testing is long gone and not going to return.

technology has allowed teams to move away from the old model. this is, frankly, an area of the sport which is increasingly become less and less important both to the teams and spectators.

so yeah, i dont think the test driver matters much and certainly not as much as it used to.

i know this because literally no one gives Ocon the credit for winning Merc's two titles this year.

I would argue it's the opposite, but it depends upon the teams. I think teams like Mercedes really understand their cars. "Understand" means they know "why" they work well. Others may have good "paper" concepts (CFD, etc.) but then the performance just doesn't show up on the track (somewhere, somehow they don't have correlation).

For the teams that are lost in the wild, they desperately need to iterate between virtual and physical testing to bring the results to the two together. Given the limitation on physical testing, you don't want a driver who is many seconds off the pace of peers as that is not exercising the car in the realm that the actual race drivers would be using. I guess you don't have to drive the car 10/10ths to get good data, but it probably helps to drive it close to that.

For the top teams, they just use the time to continue to extract a few tenths of time here and there as they battle out for extreme optimization.

What I suspect happens (someone inside can let me know if I am off the mark) is that if they have a pay test driver, they would match that up with one of their regular drivers. Then the test schedule is arranged so that the items that does not require running the car on the ragged edge are given to the pay driver, while the other handles the other tests??? But you probably don't want two test drivers who are way off pace trying to both evaluate the car as well as exercise it to the level the engineers need.

There may also be a component of consistency. I can imagine a driver who is good and familiar with the car might be very consistent when doing 8 or 9/10th testing. But someone who is not as good, might have a lot of variability trying to maintain consistent 8 or 9/10th pace over many laps.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

For the teams that are lost in the wild, they desperately need to iterate between virtual and physical testing to bring the results to the two together. Given the limitation on physical testing, you don't want a driver who is many seconds off the pace of peers as that is not exercising the car in the realm that the actual race drivers would be using. I guess you don't have to drive the car 10/10ths to get good data, but it probably helps to drive it close to that.

but surely they are able to collect that data during the GP weekend with their actual race drivers - who, all things being equal, we must presume to be of a higher caliber then their reserve driver.

the rules are currently what they are...im really just saying that teams need to focus on getting the most out of these GP weekends/practice sessions.

compared to that, testing (outside of the winter of course) is just way too limited...rather Williams is not going to find its way out of the wilderness during a couple of young driver tire test days.

just my opinion, but they may as well completely monetize this role because the money matters more to them imo.

[peebee2]

I think to develop their competitiveness they need to maximise every single minute on track. Like the total disaster of no meaningful pre-season in 2019.

Someone running around at 8/10ths is absolutely no good at all as the car will behave completely differently at that pace - they’ll only learn wrong lessons. Again.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but surely they are able to collect that data during the GP weekend with their actual race drivers - who, all things being equal, we must presume to be of a higher caliber then their reserve driver.

There is only three practice sessions per event. They will learn from all three sessions, but they probably use fp2 and fp3 to focus on event specific items (different fuel weights, qualifying simulations, tire behavior, etc.) . Fp1 is the one that other drivers (test drivers) can participate. So while they will validate the expected base setup, fp1 is where they might do more pure testing (test new aero parts, run extra measurement equipment on the car, etc.) As I mentioned above, they may have the two fp2 cars on different programs. Test driver running a test program and regular driver validating starting setup.

My point is, probably very limited time for pure testing in a race weekend.

I say all of this like I know for sure but this is a combo of what I have read and speculation as what goes on in free practice.

Richard

[chillibowl]

If you have to tune your engines down and are restricted in the number of parts availible then i dont believe running every single minute while at a track makes sense. You save it for the race weekends and run your tests while setting up for the race.

They have to pick their battles and imo their battlefield is not in the test driver market.

[peebee2]

Sorry, but I said maximise every minute they are on track. Not run every minute. Every single team turn the motor down.

Good (test if necessary) driver pace and feedback would be the cheapest development upgrade process the team could buy, which would improve competitiveness for the race drivers. This choice will only make the race drivers’ equipment less competitive.

Like many others I just want the team to get back to more where it should be, but all we see and hear of is one disastrous thing after another.

[midgetman]

But good test drivers aren't going to flock to Williams are they? Russell is gaining a small amount of experience at Mercedes, aside from that where are Williams going to find drivers who can maximise development input during FP1? Their #2 race seat is up for hire to guys who don't have relevant F1 knowledge (let's face it, even RK wasn't up to speed with the latest generation cars in the same way that any current driver is). No decent driver will want to get involved with something that could ruin their reputation - better out of F1 with honour than a slow slide to oblivion.

The only drivers they can attract are those using it as a stepping stone, either as a early career move or the ultimate arrive & drive racing experience for the exceptionally well heeled.



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[Peter Mallett]

All reminiscent of the decline of Team Tyrrell IMO. Sad to see but inevitable with the technology and costs of entering let alone competing.

Since Williams has other business streams I'm sure the organisation will survive it just won't be at the front of the grid.

[S griffin]

Nissany is almost a necessity considering the tight budget Williams are on these days. They need to use whatever money they can find

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Like many others I just want the team to get back to more where it should be, but all we see and hear of is one disastrous thing after another.

agreed and i am for sure trying too hard to put a positive spin on this issue!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

All reminiscent of the decline of Team Tyrrell IMO. Sad to see but inevitable with the technology and costs of entering let alone competing.

Since Williams has other business streams I'm sure the organisation will survive it just won't be at the front of the grid.

Sadly Williams sold a majority stake in Williams Advanced Engineering to a private equity firm last year and it's heritage arm has been quietly selling off surplus cars from it's collection - although Williams was unusual in that it kept more or less everything so had/has mutliple chassis from most years remaining - but it is the significant pedigree cars that command the big prices. I believe that the Mansell Red 5 WDC car that sold at Bonhams FOS last year for the thick end of £3m was already in private hands.


Plenty of words have been written about Williams on 10/10, some by my good self and it is fair comment that however dressed up it is, Willaims F1 of today is (save for Russell) top end corporate driving experience for billionaires sons or proteges. But pragmatism is all and although the drivers of recent years wouldn't have got through the front door at Williams, let alone have a contract, they keep it alive whilst Claire waits for something else to turn up, a better 2021 car/deal/parity - some or all of which might bring them to the fore.


But, they have already lost two sets of impatient billionaires in successive years, so they really can't afford another bad 2020.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

But, they have already lost two sets of impatient billionaires in successive years, so they really can't afford another bad 2020.

Sadly, a bad 2020 is what they will have. I can't see them rising even to the level of the worst of the midfielders.
There has to be a change at the top before any improvement will be seen.
If Claire Williams wasn't a Williams she would have been long gone.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Nissany is almost a necessity considering the tight budget Williams are on these days. They need to use whatever money they can find

They (Williams) would argue to the contrary though.

'the group is determined that enhancing its funds was not the crucial inspiring element for employing him'

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

They (Williams) would argue to the contrary though.



'the group is determined that enhancing its funds was not the crucial inspiring element for employing him'

What do you mean? Of course his funds were crucial to the team

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

What do you mean? Of course his funds were crucial to the team

I mean that Williams are saying that his signing is not based on the funds he brings.

[S griffin]

I don’t doubt it had something to do with it, let’s face it, there’s a reason he hasn’t signed for Merc

[Sodemo]

I think Williams' plan is to become the next Tyrrell.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think Williams' plan is to become the next Tyrrell.

at least Tyrrell had Jos Verstappen and Mika Salo in the last year uncle Ken was in charge

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I mean that Williams are saying that his signing is not based on the funds he brings.

I say this without meaning to be harsh on Williams because what I am about to describe is universal and not specific to Williams, F1 or motorsports.

First, any type of Press Release, public interview, etc. is ultimately an exercise in marketing, crafting of message, however you want to say it. If you are looking for the truth, don't rely upon the these types of things. There will always be a nugget of truth, but for the most part the message is being crafted for the audience.

If you are struggling (as Williams is), you don't say things like "We are selling testing slots for money". Everyone talks about "pay drivers", but you will notice that the teams generally don't acknowledge the fact that it happens. I firmly believe the Williams sold the testing slots for money. Of course there are extra requirements on the Williams side. They clearly need someone in the car who can get it around the track at a reasonable pace, doesn't crash the car, and can work a test program. Williams needs to be get something of value beyond just the money. But the money is a key point. I would say that statements from Williams are focusing on the fact they they will get something out of this other than just cash. I don't blame them at all for providing a crafted response to this topic.

If the above wasn't true then any yahoo with cash in pocket would be crashing cars during test sessions on pit exit (assuming they don't repeatedly stall the car trying to get out of the garage).

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think Williams' plan is to become the next Tyrrell.

their facilities and IP will get reused by the next iteration of the team. Tyrrell eventually became Merc...so if that is to be Williams' future then its a pretty good one!

[crmalcolm]

Don't get me wrong. I wholly feel that money is a significant factor in signing Nissany. I was just pointing out that Williams are saying otherwise.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

But, they have already lost two sets of impatient billionaires in successive years, so they really can't afford another bad 2020.

having a brain fade moment...Strolls were one but cant recall the other billionaire?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

having a brain fade moment...Strolls were one but cant recall the other billionaire?

Sirotkin backers?