The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Larger organisations will no doubt already have the tools since they've been sending goods all around the world anyway.

There are a lot of new bits of paperwork and system interfaces needed for EU and Northern Ireland trade - we have taken on extra people just to deal with the customs declarations we now need (we already do international shipments - these extra staff are purely for Brexit related work) as well as all the 'vets' we now need . We have new software interfaces to external systems purely for Brexit related changes - all of that adds extra cost. Add in the longer timescales and less efficient shipping of stock and the associated loss of shelf life and it's all looking very marginal as to whether it's worth doing or not. Whichever way you cut it costs have gone up - ok so there's no tariff, but there are a lot of extra costs.

As an amusing sidenote - we had a truck turned back by customs as it didn't have a Export Health Certificate for one of the products. The product in question? Veggie Kievs

[apriliadriver]

Originally Posted by midgetman

But what you're missing Peter is that up until Friday Zef didn't have to do it. And yes Sage it whoever does produce the appropriate report, but it's more "stuff" that has to be done on top of grinding cylinder heads or running karts or whatever actually generates the money.

It wasn't helped by Boris not getting all this hammered out until the last possible minute.


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There are many things that Boris can be blamed for, but not doing a deal with the EU until the last minute is not, I think, one of them. In common with many other institutions/bureaucracies, the EU always does negotiation cliff-hangers. Barnier did not want to do a deal anyway and had to be sidelined at the death. This deadline dance is a bit of EU theatre for the 26 nations to show them how hard they made it for GB before making the concessions that were the only alternative to No Deal. Yes, it is all v. juvenile but also inevitable. Actually the Boris/miLord Frost duo did pretty well. Certainly a massive contrast to the limitless incompetence of the T.May/Olly Egregious Robbins era which made me cringe with embarassment.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

There are a lot of new bits of paperwork and system interfaces needed for EU and Northern Ireland trade - we have taken on extra people just to deal with the customs declarations we now need (we already do international shipments - these extra staff are purely for Brexit related work) as well as all the 'vets' we now need . We have new software interfaces to external systems purely for Brexit related changes - all of that adds extra cost.

No doubt there will be costs, but amortized over a larger market (compared to Max and Zef) it becomes relatively minimal. If these requirements are the norm for countries outside of the EU why is it creating additional effort, unless your company has only ever dealt with the EU?

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Add in the longer timescales and less efficient shipping of stock and the associated loss of shelf life and it's all looking very marginal as to whether it's worth doing or not. Whichever way you cut it costs have gone up - ok so there's no tariff, but there are a lot of extra costs.

Not sure about longer timescales but that may be a product of the type of goods. As far as I can see from reports the only delays to cross channel transport is the need for a covid test, since all the paperwork is done before departure. That said I realise this is the new year and things are quiet anyway. But, I repeat my assertion, this type of trade has been going on for many years, It's not new, just new to us (as Zef said). Given the need to trade I'm sure businesses will overcome the problem.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As an amusing sidenote - we had a truck turned back by customs as it didn't have a Export Health Certificate for one of the products. The product in question? Veggie Kievs

Something for Delta and others traveling to and from European circuits may be to take a day or so to prepare a standardized list of tools and equipment which can easily be scanned onto a carnet or whatever. Once done it would take no time to plug into the paperwork and could be used on each trip. The only things that would change are the transport vehicle and the race vehicle(s).

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

No doubt there will be costs, but amortized over a larger market (compared to Max and Zef) it becomes relatively minimal. If these requirements are the norm for countries outside of the EU why is it creating additional effort, unless your company has only ever dealt with the EU?

The market is the same size as it was (no new countries have been invented as far as I'm aware). But we've never had to interface with Irish Customs directly before or the new government customs systems (that we couldn't test with as it didn't exist at the point we needed it). This customs information then needs sending back to our customers (again - it wasn't needed before so this is all new software on our side and the customer side).

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Not sure about longer timescales but that may be a product of the type of goods. As far as I can see from reports the only delays to cross channel transport is the need for a covid test, since all the paperwork is done before departure. That said I realise this is the new year and things are quiet anyway. But, I repeat my assertion, this type of trade has been going on for many years, It's not new, just new to us (as Zef said). Given the need to trade I'm sure businesses will overcome the problem.

The longer timescales are down to the new processes required. Any food product that contains animal based ingredients now needs an Export Health Certificate - each different product requires its own certificate (so beef pie needs an EHC, beef and ale pie needs a different EHC, beef and mushroom pie needs a different EHC etc etc). So rather than a truck arriving at the warehouse and being unloaded straight into picking zones each different product has to be checked and an EHC created for it (by qualified vets - which there aren't enough of so we've brought some in from the EU ). So 15 minutes becomes 2 1/2 hours. Once we've got all of the EHC stuff together we can create the vehicle manifest to send to customs - this has to be lodged 24 hours before the truck arrives at the port - so we have to hold the stock for 24 hours (losing a day of shelf life in the process). Previously the stock would be loaded and at the port in around 12 hours from receipt.
Also products that require an EHC can't be included in the same shipment as products that don't require an EHC - so previously a truck would have a mixed load and drive direct to its destination - now you have a truck with EHC product and a truck with non-EHC product (you can consolidate loads to give you full trucks of each) but once on the continent you then need to unload the trucks and rebuild as mixed loads for final delivery. A paper copy of each EHC has to travel with the truck (so at least if the drivers do get stranded they'll have something to wpie with )

Every step just makes the whole process less efficient.

The actual process of getting to the port and getting on the ferry is going ok for the most part - it's all the extra faff before and after that's the problem.

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm, I can see that these processes will get smoother simply because you can redistribute loading (in the case of mixed loads) and presumably the bulk of the loads can be standardised. In your case it seems the only market is the EU, my point about normal for countries outside relates to companies doing business elsewhere, such as Albania, where I've had the most recent experience of import/export/customs.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Hmm, I can see that these processes will get smoother simply because you can redistribute loading (in the case of mixed loads) and presumably the bulk of the loads can be standardised.

You can combine loads - but then you need to unload and cross dock product for final delivery points. To do that you need a warehouse on the continent. Previously loads went direct so this step (and building) wasn't needed.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

In your case it seems the only market is the EU, my point about normal for countries outside relates to companies doing business elsewhere, such as Albania, where I've had the most recent experience of import/export/customs.

All of our "non-EU" shipments are air freight or shipping containers - both of which have their own quirks of course (again requirements can be different for each market). We don't truck to any non-EU countries. The processes for those international shipments haven't changed. My point is that we now have a lot of extra costs introduced purely for EU shipments - for no benefit.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

You can combine loads - but then you need to unload and cross dock product for final delivery points. To do that you need a warehouse on the continent. Previously loads went direct so this step (and building) wasn't needed.

Similar to DIRFT? Could be a market there then.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

All of our "non-EU" shipments are air freight or shipping containers - both of which have their own quirks of course (again requirements can be different for each market). We don't truck to any non-EU countries. The processes for those international shipments haven't changed. My point is that we now have a lot of extra costs introduced purely for EU shipments - for no benefit.

There is a benefit, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Understood these processes are different but it seems to me that they won't be difficult in short order. Agreed if the majority had not voted to leave, these challenges would not arise. But they have.

[MGDavid]

it's one of the oldest sayings in management theory and practice - "people don't like change"

[Gerard C]

Exact, chez nous cela donne: les gens ont peur du changement.

[Peter Mallett]

In fairness to Bert he's experiencing the "barriers" that we were told would not be there. However most don't see them as barriers since trading isn't barred. From my perspective I see it as normal business in international trade and as Bert says, his company has to do similar processes for other countries.

However, the UK Customs and Excise is somewhat esoteric so I'm sure it will need to improve its processes before long.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

it's one of the oldest sayings in management theory and practice - "people don't like change"

Mmmmm it's good to change if there's a positive outcome but change for change's sake? Or change for no tangible benefits? That's different. My friends aren't just luddites resisting change for the sake of it, these are intelligent & successful people who have no benefit to their businessess for a change that was outside their power.

As Peter says there are barriers that didn't have to be crossed last week, and to go from UK-esque trading to being a full blown exporter is a PITA.


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[Peter Mallett]

I'd suggest that the fact we can roll out vaccines waaaay before the EU is a massive benefit.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

There is a benefit, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Understood these processes are different but it seems to me that they won't be difficult in short order.

Once we've got the systems bedded in they won't be difficult (there is still a lot of reference data that needs cleaning up, that'll improve over time) - but there is an ongoing cost to running the systems and having the extra staff needed. We've got increased costs to carry on doing what we were doing before? So where is the benefit? I don't see anything in the new system that's an improvement over the old but I can see plenty that's worse.

Originally Posted by MGDavid

it's one of the oldest sayings in management theory and practice - "people don't like change"

Change is fine - a lot of what I do is putting new systems in place and people are quite often resistant to it (as you say - they don't like change especially if it's something they've been doing a certain way for years) but if you can show them the benefits of the changes and explain why you're doing it then it makes life easier. In this case I'm finding it difficult to come up with anything positive - I'm willing to accept suggestions here

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

In fairness to Bert he's experiencing the "barriers" that we were told would not be there. However most don't see them as barriers since trading isn't barred. From my perspective I see it as normal business in international trade and as Bert says, his company has to do similar processes for other countries.

However, the UK Customs and Excise is somewhat esoteric so I'm sure it will need to improve its processes before long.

A lot of people have seen "we've got a deal, there are no tariffs" and assumed that means that there's no extra cost involved. The reality is very different. You're right that we do similar processes (and some far more involved) for other countries - but the new rules for the EU are just an added layer of cost that wasn't there before. So shipments to the EU are now more expensive than they were - which eats into profit margin.

Also - "somewhat esoteric" is an understatement

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'd suggest that the fact we can roll out vaccines waaaay before the EU is a massive benefit.

This comment may well be tongue in cheek, but it is in poor taste. The fact that the NHS and the UK's health system exists has and never has had any bearing on our membership of the EU.

And to the best of my knowledge, the EU has never posed any danger to the existence of the NHS.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This comment may well be tongue in cheek, but it is in poor taste. The fact that the NHS and the UK's health system exists has and never has had any bearing on our membership of the EU.

And to the best of my knowledge, the EU has never posed any danger to the existence of the NHS.

In fairness to Peter I think that comment refers to us being able to approve the vaccine before the EU.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This comment may well be tongue in cheek, but it is in poor taste. The fact that the NHS and the UK's health system exists has and never has had any bearing on our membership of the EU.

And to the best of my knowledge, the EU has never posed any danger to the existence of the NHS.

Mike, we were way ahead of the USA even with their own vaccine, I am pretty sure that if the EU had a hand in our NHS we would not be so far advanced as we are now.
I doubt that Peter, meant any more then that.

[Gerard C]

Down here its not a matter of approval or stock level, and yes we are far behind many countries in some aspects. We can check the fridges remotely as well as trucks but till now nothing is done to check the product itself. And it its said that some vaccines can become harmful when the cold chain has been interrupted. Anyway I'll go for it but can't really find comfortable.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by bauble

Mike, we were way ahead of the USA even with their own vaccine, I am pretty sure that if the EU had a hand in our NHS we would not be so far advanced as we are now.

A little bit surprised by your comment, Bob. Should it be a race, dont you think we must ALL be the winners? A war as well, do we? Scientists of all countries have been working together, or are supposed to have been, that's why the vaccines are available now. Its a worldwide affair, yes?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

A little bit surprised by your comment, Bob. Should it be a race, dont you think we must ALL be the winners? A war as well, do we? Scientists of all countries have been working together, or are supposed to have been, that's why the vaccines are available now. Its a worldwide affair, yes?

Gerard, I think that we may be seeing comments from those of our friends that were not lovers of the EU, and possibly other countries as well. This, unfortunately, tends to colour their views.

[Peter Mallett]

To be clear, my point was, that being out of the EU we were able to a) fund our own vaccine procurement; and b) roll them out before the EU has even approved them. Had we still been in the EU we would be in the same position as France, Germany etc. Look at the figures. So, no not a race but a fact and nothing to do with the NHS.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...fizer-BioNTech

Apologies for the use of the Express but it is one source of many.

[BertMk2]

We have a new record - a truck despatched overnight had just over 300 sheets of A4 documentation to go with the load (mostly EHC related)

[Peter Mallett]

Cool. We shipped tonnes of steel to Albania a couple of years ago. This required certs of origin, heat numbers, rolling dates and QC certificates, among other things. All rolled into a bar code which the customs scanned on unloading at the dockside. Same bar code was then used upon installation so we know where and when the component was installed. Maybe that software, or a derivative, could assist.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Cool. We shipped tonnes of steel to Albania a couple of years ago. This required certs of origin, heat numbers, rolling dates and QC certificates, among other things. All rolled into a bar code which the customs scanned on unloading at the dockside. Same bar code was then used upon installation so we know where and when the component was installed. Maybe that software, or a derivative, could assist.

The problem is that we have to have a paper copy of each EHC with the load - we're sending electronic versions too but physical copies have to go with the truck. It's something that could (and should) be switched to electronic only but at the moment the rules say we have to have paper copies. That same load previously would have had 3 sheets of A4 with it. Software isn't the problem - the rules are the problem.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Gerard, I think that we may be seeing comments from those of our friends that were not lovers of the EU, and possibly other countries as well. This, unfortunately, tends to colour their views.

Loud and clear, sir. Thanks.

The problem in France is not the vaccine, several available atm, but the French themselves. Nothing new, I fear.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

To be clear, my point was, that being out of the EU we were able to a) fund our own vaccine procurement; and b) roll them out before the EU has even approved them. Had we still been in the EU we would be in the same position as France, Germany etc. Look at the figures. So, no not a race but a fact and nothing to do with the NHS.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...fizer-BioNTech

Apologies for the use of the Express but it is one source of many.

And I believe, and you can find sources that confirm this, that the UK had previously decided to opt out of centralised purchasing of medicines/vaccines as a matter of political thinking prior to Brexit, as well as they had already legalised the change to how medications/vaccines are to be regulated, again prior to Brexit.

But I do agree that in this instance, it would appear that the UK's government has actually pulled their fingers out, and have appeared to have done a pretty good job so far on the vaccine front.