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Old 14 Dec 2006, 18:41 (Ref:1790759)   #51
chezza
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chezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by DarrellB
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Originally Posted by scorch
But it certainly seems like it does because before gradeing to track marshall or experenced marshall you HAVE to do 15 (or 10) days combined Flag and Incident Duties.
But it certainly seems like it does because before gradeing to track marshall or experenced marshall you HAVE to do 15 (or 10) days combined Flag and Incident Duties.True but this is only for the time during upgrading and it is only five days min on one or the other. Bit like having to do a turn in the road for your driving test and then never doing it again! (properly!!)
It may only be for while your grading but for those who have no desire to or interest in flagging you are still being forced to do something you don't want to, even if it is only for however many days it is. I hate flagging and would be disinterested in grading if I had to do it. Fortunately I've already gained my red badge!
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Old 14 Dec 2006, 18:54 (Ref:1790778)   #52
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Originally Posted by DarrellB
The one area that interests me is the need to attend a min of 4 meetings and a biannual training day to maintain the grade. There may be many marshals that for whatever reason don't do any meetings in one year do they then downgrade?
The current system stipulates five meetings per year & two training days over a three year period, so the requirements have actually been reduced!

(By the way, you mean biennial - biannual means twice in a year!)

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I have done loads of meetings the last few years but not as an incident marshal (which is my grade) does this system now mean that I should be a trainee again??
Shhhh....don't tell the MSA
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Old 14 Dec 2006, 19:50 (Ref:1790810)   #53
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(By the way, you mean biennial - biannual means twice in a year!)
Quite right too that will teach me to copy off the grading scheme
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Old 14 Dec 2006, 20:09 (Ref:1790823)   #54
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Originally Posted by chezza
It may only be for while your grading but for those who have no desire to or interest in flagging you are still being forced to do something you don't want to, even if it is only for however many days it is. I hate flagging and would be disinterested in grading if I had to do it. Fortunately I've already gained my red badge!
I can understand your view and your probably not alone (once after standing at Druids with a yellow flag for a truck race I can fully understand )

The problem is that now at some meetings it is necessary for someone to stand in as flag and therefore to include a requirement for some training within the grading scheme is quite important.
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Old 14 Dec 2006, 22:54 (Ref:1790959)   #55
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JimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Dave Brand
(By the way, you mean biennial - biannual means twice in a year!)
Well sometimes it does, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennial for a summary of the confusion.

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Old 14 Dec 2006, 23:08 (Ref:1790971)   #56
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Ok, I've thought some more about this, and got even more confused, so here goes with the start of the questions.

Will I still be able to volunteer for the duty I want to do? What I want to do depends on the venue and the categories racing, and I like to mix them up for variety. It is a hobby after all. Since the two duties don't officially exist, then what will the volunteering forms say? And since I'll dress differently or carry different equipment according to what I'm doing, I really want to know before I set out.

I spend a little under half my season at speed events, and despite the fact that they run under different grading schemes, I've always considered that an incident marshal (course/fire/incident/incident officer) is doing the same job at both types of event - though acknowledging that circuit handling requires a different outlook because the aims are not quite the same - the skills are 90% transferable at least. So I tend to go to the hillclimb training sessions because it's more convenient. But that, apparently, won't cover me for the training sessions needed to maintain my circuit grade.

The scheme talks about Post Chief training sessions for speed events. Hmm, I wonder if someone's going to run one, then. I wonder if the MSA, clueless about marshalling circuits, even knows what the difference is when operating at a hill climb or sprint.

That's just for starters. I'm sure there's many more.
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Old 15 Dec 2006, 11:42 (Ref:1791317)   #57
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Originally Posted by Woolley
Will I still be able to volunteer for the duty I want to do? What I want to do depends on the venue and the categories racing, and I like to mix them up for variety. It is a hobby after all. Since the two duties don't officially exist, then what will the volunteering forms say? And since I'll dress differently or carry different equipment according to what I'm doing, I really want to know before I set out.
Definitely yes, the different duties of flag and incident will still officially exist. It's the flag grade that won't exist..
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Availability forms generally have a space for "grade" and another for "usual Duty". Some even ask about your willingness to "undertake other duties.
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Old 15 Dec 2006, 22:22 (Ref:1791794)   #58
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This is just 'another change for change sake'...if it ain't broke why fit it ...unless of course you just want to make a name for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 15 Dec 2006, 23:20 (Ref:1791825)   #59
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I don't know about anyone else, but I actually felt achievement in attaining
my grades in the old system.
Looking at the changes, i feel it's time to say thank you and goodbye.
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Old 15 Dec 2006, 23:49 (Ref:1791832)   #60
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I've just spent quite a while reading through the document at the beginning of the thread and the subsequent posts.

I have little marshalling experience and have one training day under my belt...so far.

The thing I find confusing is the difference between speed and circuit marshals, which I believe has always been the case (please correct me if wrong as still pretty new to all of this!). To me they are (reasonably) similar but wanting to compete as well as marshal in speed events in particular means the number of "required" days marshalling could prove difficult to meet. Rally marshalling is something I only do once or twice a year, mainly when Sevenoaks MC are running an event / stage etc, so though if free I would like to attend a training day in the new year the reality of becoming a fully "recognised" non-trainee rally marshal is fairly unlikely the way I see things.

I don't have experience of the "old" system but I like to have goals both at work and at home to work towards and hope that when I do attain my grade I feel the acheivement to go with it although others here seem a little apprehensive.

I guess it's really a case of time will tell! Maybe I'll have a slightly different perspective though just being a trainee, and the experience I have will I think have little definition on how I find things with this new system as my current experience is very limited....maybe something to report back this time next year!
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Old 17 Dec 2006, 18:05 (Ref:1792931)   #61
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JimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Woolley
Will I still be able to volunteer for the duty I want to do?
Absolutely.
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The scheme talks about Post Chief training sessions for speed events. Hmm, I wonder if someone's going to run one, then. I wonder if the MSA, clueless about marshalling circuits, even knows what the difference is when operating at a hill climb or sprint.
Whether or not the MSA knows the difference (and I suspect they do ) you can rest assured that those who contributed to the discussions which resulted in the new scheme do know the difference and, between us, we all have done and still do all the jobs which these documents reflect. This does not guarantee that we have got everything right but give us some credit for trying.

For the first time Speed (and Kart) marshals will be graded/registerd by the MSA. (Trainees will also be on the Register, again for the first time.) We worked hard to get this idea across and the MSA have accepted our arguments once they had been costed and the implications for the department which deals with the register (for it also does licences) had been taken on board. We will probably need to iron out some bugs in the system but I hope this does not mean that there are any fundamental flaws. Tell us in a year's time.

Regards

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Old 17 Dec 2006, 18:12 (Ref:1792934)   #62
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Originally Posted by Alpha Charlie 6
This is just 'another change for change sake'...if it ain't broke why fit it ...unless of course you just want to make a name for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been trying to live down the name I made for myself for years now. And what's more I don't go looking for activities to fill many evenings over the last 18 months or so unless I think there is some benefit for the system. I may be wrong but that's not my intention.

You may not think that change was necessary but lots of marshals did and that's why they kept raising issues. The environment in which we are working is changing and we need to keep up, not get left behind.

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Last edited by JimW; 17 Dec 2006 at 18:14.
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Old 17 Dec 2006, 22:58 (Ref:1793151)   #63
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Without wishing to sound like I'm creeping, knowing you were involved in planning it gives me a lot more confidence in it's potential success. I can't say I've got the hang of where it's going, but if it's been formulated by experienced, knowledgeable and emminently sensible people then I'm prepared to wait and see how it evolves in practice. There have been a number of highly curious MSA initiatives over time, so it's understandable that we're looking on this with suspicion. May I suggest a more thorough explanation of how it will work in practice (I haven't sussed the theory from the diagrams and explanations work), perhaps with 'new marshal A joins here and will do this' type scenarios?

Or in my case, 'fairly cynical old hand, several disciplines and duties on a regular basis, finally bothered to grade for flags and having got half way through finds it doesn't seem to exist, is here (big arrow) and will end up here (another arrow) and should either a) pursue the grade with haste or b) give up because he's going to get it [never going to get it?] anyway'!
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Old 17 Dec 2006, 23:53 (Ref:1793171)   #64
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Originally Posted by Woolley
Or in my case, 'fairly cynical old hand, several disciplines and duties on a regular basis, finally bothered to grade for flags and having got half way through finds it doesn't seem to exist, etc etc .......
"Just wonders"......

how many Chief Marshals, Observers, I/O's etc actually take any notice of one's grading? What if one doesn't wear ones badges?

The F1 GP in the Uk aside, I have NEVER found a Circuit grade to make the slightest difference as to what duties have been assigned to me or any others around me.
"Rescue" does not count, before anyone jumps in, as this is an MSA Licensed position (quite rightly) and does not come under "Marshal" grading. (even though many Rescue members will still 'marshal' whilst on a unit).

Ever since I first started marshalling (over 20 yrs ago now) the number of times I have actually been asked as to "what-grade-am-I" could be counted on less digits than I now have. But !!!!!!!!
I have been asked untold times.............. "how many days have you done?"

so which one is the most relevant?

which leads to the next question........ (for all you experienced Observers, I/O's, Trainers or Buddys)......

which would you prefer?

1) a grading card holding marshal with the minimum required days + training sessions........ or

2) an attendance card with over 50 days per year but not enough training days?

or would it make any difference at all?



I am not in any way trying to undermine the value of training days or the efforts put in by those that run them. I still attend them and learn something everytime.

My point is......(as stated before but not answered)....

Does a grade make a Marshal? or......

why do we need grades if attendance could be enough????


This is my own opinion having attained nearly all the grades I ever wanted but having been refused the one that others thought I deserved.
And then I get asked to do the "Duty",for which I have no grade, by people I helped to train!!

Go figure!!
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Old 18 Dec 2006, 10:46 (Ref:1793381)   #65
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Originally Posted by Stuart Hill
how many Chief Marshals, Observers, I/O's etc actually take any notice of one's grading? What if one doesn't wear ones badges?

Ever since I first started marshalling (over 20 yrs ago now) the number of times I have actually been asked as to "what-grade-am-I" could be counted on less digits than I now have. But !!!!!!!!
I have been asked untold times.............. "how many days have you done?"
Other IOs may do it differently, but my first criterion in organising the incident team is grade; as, at Oulton & Anglesey, we have a sign-on form on post with a space for grade, it's not always necessary to actually ask people their grade. 'Reds' I take to be competent, although if it's somebody I don't know I will ask if they have marshalled at the circuit before & if they have done the post. Manning levels being what they are, it's now very common to have to use 'greens' as the more experienced marshal of a pair. If this is necessary, I'll ask how many signatures they have to get some measure of their experience. Trainees, if I don't know them, I will usually ask both how many signatures & how many meetings.

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so which one is the most relevant?
I don't think either is more or less relevant - when all's said & done it's the ability of the individual that matters. Some people can have done hundreds of days on the bank & learnt nothing, others are 'naturals' & can perform at a level well above what their grade & experience would indicate.

Quote:
which leads to the next question........ (for all you experienced Observers, I/O's, Trainers or Buddys)......

which would you prefer?

1) a grading card holding marshal with the minimum required days + training sessions........ or

2) an attendance card with over 50 days per year but not enough training days?

or would it make any difference at all?
I wouldn't claim to be experienced, but as an IO all I want is GOOD marshals. Training & grading are of vital importance, but not an end in themselves - they are a means of ensuring that we have marshals on post who can do whatever is required of them in a competent &, above all safe, manner.

As my old boss used to say: 'some people have 25 years' experience; others have one year's experience repeated 25 times'.
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Old 18 Dec 2006, 10:56 (Ref:1793384)   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Hill
"Just wonders"......

how many Chief Marshals, Observers, I/O's etc actually take any notice of one's grading? What if one doesn't wear ones badges?

The F1 GP in the Uk aside, I have NEVER found a Circuit grade to make the slightest difference as to what duties have been assigned to me or any others around me.
"Rescue" does not count, before anyone jumps in, as this is an MSA Licensed position (quite rightly) and does not come under "Marshal" grading. (even though many Rescue members will still 'marshal' whilst on a unit).

Ever since I first started marshalling (over 20 yrs ago now) the number of times I have actually been asked as to "what-grade-am-I" could be counted on less digits than I now have. But !!!!!!!!
I have been asked untold times.............. "how many days have you done?"

so which one is the most relevant?

which leads to the next question........ (for all you experienced Observers, I/O's, Trainers or Buddys)......

which would you prefer?

1) a grading card holding marshal with the minimum required days + training sessions........ or

2) an attendance card with over 50 days per year but not enough training days?

or would it make any difference at all?



I am not in any way trying to undermine the value of training days or the efforts put in by those that run them. I still attend them and learn something everytime.

My point is......(as stated before but not answered)....

Does a grade make a Marshal? or......

why do we need grades if attendance could be enough????


This is my own opinion having attained nearly all the grades I ever wanted but having been refused the one that others thought I deserved.
And then I get asked to do the "Duty",for which I have no grade, by people I helped to train!!

Go figure!!
I undermean exactly what you stand to say Stuiie!!

However, that don't make it right....for every 10 times it hasn't mattered to the "seniors", the times I was asked by someone who really knows their stuff makes up for it a thousandfold over. We should always be striving for the pinnacle (or is that peenuckle?? ).....if the people you are presented with at a particular meeting "just don't get it" then our responsibility as volunteer Marshals is to try and cooperatively educate and work as a team (sounds good...dun it )
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Old 19 Dec 2006, 13:08 (Ref:1794648)   #67
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So when does this start, then?
In 2007, do attendence signatures count towards upgrading, or do we still need XO-signed upgrade sigs?
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Old 19 Dec 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1794675)   #68
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I guess what it comes down to is: Do I still need to collect the remaining 4 signatures for the flag grade or not? If not, do I now need to collect attendance signatures, because I've never bothered before. If they're now important, I will do.

At speed events, as a black badge (not X), if someone asks me for a signature, do I sign it because I couldn't before.

Armed with those answers, I'm happy to go with the flow and see where this takes us.
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 00:14 (Ref:1795303)   #69
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Pete Howarth should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm not happy to go with the flow and see where it takes us.

So, I would like to thank everyone who has marshalled at events when I've been chief marshal, and to everyone I've been on post with over the years.

Good bye and stay safe
Pete
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 09:29 (Ref:1795546)   #70
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Whats in a name?
Seems to me at the end of all this the only thing that's going to change is the job title.
Once on post I guess things will be much the same, as most people that have a grade will have worked with each other at some time.
So that just leaves new marshals/trainees who normally turn up for their first events with some one with a grade anyway.
We only need one title ..................... TEAM!
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 09:54 (Ref:1795573)   #71
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That's a very good point.

Peter, it would be a sad occasion if this were the catalyst for you giving up marshalling. I sincerely hope you will take time over Christmas to reconsider your decision.
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 16:16 (Ref:1795963)   #72
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Whats in a name?
Seems to me at the end of all this the only thing that's going to change is the job title.
I agree if it was just that simple... in my view it's not just about the names, for any form of "trackside duty" you HAVE to do flagging.

I have spoke to at least 1 trainee this year that wanted to give up because he was asked to do flagging, and didn't want to do it.

And there is always discussion on here after a GP about the standard of flag signals, we have the best flaggies in the world because we don't put trainee's onto flags.
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 16:32 (Ref:1795970)   #73
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chezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Also its not just the name change, if it was that then I don't think people would be so vocal.

The problem I see is with the change from signatures for actually handling an incident to just getting one for turning up. Ok you have to have an assessment, but i'm sure there are people that would get through the assessment by the skin of thier teeth, that shouldn't be graded at that point. Yes I admit that this can happen with the current system with people rushing their grading, but I think it would happen more with the new system.
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Old 20 Dec 2006, 16:46 (Ref:1795993)   #74
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I sometimes feel that the grading system attracts too much attention, but that's not to say it's not important.

I personally haven't collected any signatures for about 10 years, but as I work within an established team I have no aspirations (at the moment) to move further up the ladder. As it's just a fun hobby, I'm not concerned about whether I'm regarded as "experienced" or not by the grading system. Those who need to know something about me already know what experience (or lack of) I have.

However, if you have aspirations to become an Observer, then this new system doesn't seem too bad to me (a balance of broad experience, assessment and training). There has to be a formal system that rates individuals, and for those that are interested in moving up the tree, I can't see what the problem is.

(But you can enjoy motorsport without worrying about signatures.)

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Old 20 Dec 2006, 17:10 (Ref:1796024)   #75
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Suze should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuze should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuze should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I am after signatures - but only to make the step from trainee to course marshal / [insert correct name here as may have it wrong I fear!] but after that it's a case of seeing how it goes and what I want to do and if I enjoy it!
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2018 Champion Driver - Association of Central Southern Motor Clubs Stage Rally Championship
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