[Official] Belgian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 7

[S griffin]

He’s still beating Latifi though, so I’d say it’s more a problem with Williams than Russell. I really hope they get their act together

[TrapezeArtist]

Kerbs , again! There were so many places yesterday where drivers habitually went across the red and yellow, across the green, and onto the black, staying just short of the gravel. Well, of course, why wouldn't they? They are all perfectly capable of placing their car to within a few inches so that's what they do.

The solution to "track limits" is not to tell the drivers they may get a penalty if they go over the white line persistently. It's to take away all the kerbs and then the drivers will have to drive on the track. A bit of grass between tarmac and gravel on the corner exits would be fine. If they run too wide they'll lose a bit of time but not too much. Apexes are different because the inside wheels are so light it would be easy to cut a corner, increase the radius of turn and not suffer any consequences. In that case a big, fat, ugly sausage kerb would keep the drivers on the track.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

He’s still beating Latifi though, so I’d say it’s more a problem with Williams than Russell. I really hope they get their act together

If he can beat Kubica, even an older, one-armed one, then Latifi shouldn’t cause too much of a problem. In fact I’m surprised he’s not beating him by more on race pace. Quite a lot more.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by peebee2

If he can beat Kubica, even an older, one-armed one, then Latifi shouldn’t cause too much of a problem. In fact I’m surprised he’s not beating him by more on race pace. Quite a lot more.

Ummmm so he should beat a multiple F2 race winner and championship runner up more than a crippled ex F1 driver.

Not sure I follow your logic....

[steve_r]

Russell needs a better car. I dont understand the criticism of him, there was nothing he could do yesterday. The fact that he has dragged the car into a position where he can actually regularly race against other cars which seem much faster in race trim is to his credit. I have yet to see either of his teammates do so. I hope that Williams can deliver, or he gets another drive somewhere else.

On another subject - the DRS was far too effective in the race. Passes were too easy, and basically we saw drivers just follow the car in front for a whole lap, and then breeze past. The zone needed to be shorter.

[Lancsbreaker]

Can't help feel that the funniest point of the commentary (and I think both Sky and Channel 4 picked up on it) was the shot of Sainz looking at tad depressed and the commentator speculating on whether that was because he could see Norris performing reasonably well and wishing he could be out there, or because he'd just checked and his contract with Ferrari for next year was watertight.......

[S griffin]

If yesterday was anything to go by, Alonso might have made the right choice for once...

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by steve_r

On another subject - the DRS was far too effective in the race. Passes were too easy, and basically we saw drivers just follow the car in front for a whole lap, and then breeze past. The zone needed to be shorter.

Unless there is a Ferrari power unit in the car.


I wonder what old man Enzo would if he thought his cars were so far down on power. I am surprised there has not been an earthquake in a grave yard down Maranello way.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Kerbs , again! There were so many places yesterday where drivers habitually went across the red and yellow, across the green, and onto the black, staying just short of the gravel. Well, of course, why wouldn't they? They are all perfectly capable of placing their car to within a few inches so that's what they do.

The solution to "track limits" is not to tell the drivers they may get a penalty if they go over the white line persistently. It's to take away all the kerbs and then the drivers will have to drive on the track. A bit of grass between tarmac and gravel on the corner exits would be fine. If they run too wide they'll lose a bit of time but not too much. Apexes are different because the inside wheels are so light it would be easy to cut a corner, increase the radius of turn and not suffer any consequences. In that case a big, fat, ugly sausage kerb would keep the drivers on the track.

They were told where not to do that, and told where it would be "acceptable". There were, I think, three "hot spots" that were under strict observation.

If circuits were only ever used for F1 then yes, changes could be made. But they're not; see arguments made many times (some by me) over the years about kerbs, safety, bikes, sports cars etc ad infinitum.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I dont understand the criticism of him, there was nothing he could do yesterday.

Whose fault was it that he lost his customary two positions then?

If he hadn’t fallen behind cars he outqualified he wouldn’t have into the wreck of one of them. Fact.

F1 is a hard and harsh world.

[Adam43]

That’s a bit sliding doors. So I don’t think it is correct to attribute the crash to him. Take the logic further, If he didn’t lose those positions then Giovinazzi may well have not even crashed as his race would have developed differently. It’s not correct to say it’s Russell’s fault Giovinazzi crashed either.

Surely these are just different things. Yes, losing the places is not a good thing - we should look into that. Did he make poor choices, or drove badly? Is it just likely you lose out on the run to the first corner with the slipstreaming, especially when in the mid field and you can get boxed in, etc...

Then there is unfortunately being caught up in that.

Separate considerations.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Whose fault was it that he lost his customary two positions then?

If he hadn’t fallen behind cars he outqualified he wouldn’t have into the wreck of one of them. Fact.

F1 is a hard and harsh world.

It's all speculation. Including your "Fact". Who knows what might have happened if he didn't loose positions early on. Maybe he would have won the race, or on the opposite end had an even worse accident. There is no way to know/tell.

As to your theory that he looses positions because of his own issues, who knows. Maybe that is true, or just as valid, maybe the Williams shines (qualifying) in clean air, but then runs poorly in traffic? Maybe what Russell is guilty of is over-driving a bad car as he attempts to pull it off the back of the grid?

Frankly, I think it's hard to judge Russell too negatively. He is in what is still arguably the worst chassis. But it's also hard to say what his true potential is. His primary measuring stick is his teammate. We can quibble about Kubica's ability in 2019, but in the end, for the races in which they both finished, it was 16-2. This year with Latifi it is 5-0. Both substantially in Russell's favor. But given how bad the Williams continues to be, it's just hard to measure his abilities against the rest of the field.

The only other potential evidence is when he was running the 2019 Mercedes in testing last December. He ran about three race distances and was able to put in the quickest time that day (2/10ths clear of Leclerc on the same tire compound). Now, we all know that it is hard to extract relative performance from "testing" times as not everyone is going for a hot lap, but again, it is a positive datapoint.

Russell needs to get out of that car/team ASAP. Williams may come back (and I hope they do), but he would be a fool to stay in the car hoping it will improve while his potential for placing higher up in the order slips away year after year.

Richard

[gert]

I think Russell is doing a fine job in a not-very-good car.

I am not saying he is overrated but I have the feeling that sometimes he gets more credit than he actually deserves.

For example, In autosport.com's driver ratings he gets an 8
I think that's a bit too much, as he lost postions from his starting position and only completed 9 laps (after being caught in another driver's accident)

The 8 he gets from Autosport.com earns him the same score as Ocon, Bottas and Raikkonen and as such he is rated better than Albon, Norris (both on 7) and Perez (only 6)

It's all subjective, but IMO his race in Belgium doesn't warrant such a high score.

[Knowlesy]

It probably doesn’t but, well, who cares?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

It probably doesn’t but, well, who cares?

Lol!!

Probably glad he had the halo when that errant rear tyre bounced towards him!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Whose fault was it that he lost his customary two positions then?

If he hadn’t fallen behind cars he outqualified he wouldn’t have into the wreck of one of them. Fact.

F1 is a hard and harsh world.

I tend to agree with your logic, however what is that Williams gearbox like compared to the rest, and what are their ratios like?

This is all stuff that should be published, what ratios they have selected?
I am sick and tired of being told how high tech the cars are, when the reality is we just have one "black box" racing against another.

[Adam43]

Iirc they can only change ratios once a year now. The data could well be out there somewhere.???

Not sure the knowledge improves anything, but it would be interesting.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Iirc they can only change ratios once a year now. The data could well be out there somewhere.???

Not sure the knowledge improves anything, but it would be interesting.

I thought they had to nominate them at the beginning of the year, and done. Your scenario would make more sense though, so I am probably right.

Be nice if one of the journalists asked Russell what seems to be going wrong off the starts though.

[Adam43]

I think there was a change once a year, which would be good just in case you mess up! Although I always thought one team might think they are clever enough to go short until the get to Monza and then change!

Yes, it would be good to hear about his starts and first laps. I can’t tell if he is just losing out on the start or generally on the first lap. Could be lots of different things.

[S griffin]

Really hope he can pull something out of the bag at Monza like he did in Spa qualifying. His made it despite his draggy car, let's see if he overcome that handicap at Monza

[steve_r]

Presumably Russell is dragging the Williams into Q2 thanks in part to the "party made" on his engine, which is not available during the race, hence what seems to be backward progression during the race. He also said in an interview a few races ago that the car doesn't work well in dirty air.

It's hard for a driver to shine in a car that is constantly at the back. He can only keep beating his teammates and hope that the Williams improves or that he gets a better drive.

[S griffin]

At least now they’ve been bought out they should have the money to improve in the future

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

At least now they’ve been bought out they should have the money to improve in the future

...with a bit of luck they will be racing Ferrari!

[S griffin]

Why only racing Ferrari? Beating Ferrari would be even better!