Mustang Is Go!!!!

[GTRMagic]

Everyone seems to be laying the blame for this homologation issue with Mr Stewart... weirdly enough the teams actually signed this off thru the VASC Commission..

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by johnh875

Seamer is quoted saying the changes are transparent, but I have not seen any figures? Either to justify the changes (eg separating DJRTP performance vs some of the Holden backmarkers) or to quantify them.

Hard to be transparent when you don't have real data - if you're interested just look at micro sector times from PI, it's what Supercars did... Or did you want to see real data, like drag coefficient numbers for all models?

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Everyone seems to be laying the blame for this homologation issue with Mr Stewart... weirdly enough the teams actually signed this off thru the VASC Commission..

Dont we always blame the people who arent in the room when something hits the fan.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Everyone seems to be laying the blame for this homologation issue with Mr Stewart... weirdly enough the teams actually signed this off thru the VASC Commission..

You mean Mr Stuart (sorry). You're absolutely right, the homologations (I think "Vehicle Recognition" is actually the term used but I may be out of date with that) are signed off by the commission and I think also the teams representing each manufacturer in the process.

They're being quite harsh in my view when they criticise Mr Stuart - he was of course brought into the role as the technical head but then subsequently the sporting head left and Mr Stuart ended up with both roles - asking one person to do the work of two people on a prolonged basis often leads to less than ideal outcomes.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

You mean Mr Stuart (sorry). You're absolutely right, the homologations (I think "Vehicle Recognition" is actually the term used but I may be out of date with that) are signed off by the commission and I think also the teams representing each manufacturer in the process.

They're being quite harsh in my view when they criticise Mr Stuart - he was of course brought into the role as the technical head but then subsequently the sporting head left and Mr Stuart ended up with both roles - asking one person to do the work of two people on a prolonged basis often leads to less than ideal outcomes.

Bloody spell check..
And the Holden representatives were present at the tests and their team owners represented on the VASC commission...

They keep calling the testing VCAT which always has me thinking of the consumer affairs mob down south of the same initials..

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Hard to be transparent when you don't have real data - if you're interested just look at micro sector times from PI, it's what Supercars did... Or did you want to see real data, like drag coefficient numbers for all models?

Perhaps Supercars could explain the basis for the change, like in the old days when they used timing analysis to either act or hold on parity adjustments. There was a trigger level of X% before any action was taken and I think some sort of statistically valid analysis where you throw out 'anomaly' times. This is a problem when there are only 6 Mustangs of course, very small sample size, from 2 of the bigger teams. How much of a factor is it DJRTP getting everything right versus other teams dropping the ball?

Drag coefficient as per the homologation testing should be close enough at least at 200km/h otherwise they wouldn't have been approved, so there is more to it than that.

I was wondering how much they have cut off the end plates, splitter and Gurney - pretty basic info.

[Umai Naa]

The test doesn't account for how the aero devices behave through a corner or at yaw.

Which is what people in the industry are up in arms about.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The test doesn't account for how the aero devices behave through a corner or at yaw.

Which is what people in the industry are up in arms about.

Except for 2 teams

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I was wondering how much they have cut off the end plates, splitter and Gurney - pretty basic info.

Pics of new end plates here.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/04/26...te-comparison/

Still a sponsor friendly size....





Parity based on race lap times to me is sporting parity, not technical parity. It's assuming teams, equipment, setups and drivers are all of equal quality.




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[Forda]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Except for 2 teams

And around 50% of the series' fanbase.

What were your thoughts at the time when CAMS added weight and boost restrictions to the R32 GTR?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Forda

What were your thoughts at the time when CAMS added weight and boost restrictions to the R32 GTR?

Funny that you draw an analog between the two as both were fast and loose with the rules it seems...

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Funny that you draw an analog between the two as both were fast and loose with the rules it seems...

The Mustangs comply 100% with the current rule set.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Forda

The Mustangs comply 100% with the current rule set.

Mixer can't help but whinge.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Forda

The Mustangs comply 100% with the current rule set.

You know apart from illegal external ballast and bending wings... Allegedly

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You know apart from illegal external ballast and bending wings... Allegedly

Apart from nothing, otherwise they would have been fined.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Forda

Apart from nothing, otherwise they would have been fined.

Not a good look really and considering it is a grey area in the rules, to officially penalise your wonderful "new" manufacturer for their participation.

The mufflers are 100% illegal in the spirit of the rules and they were dangerous. If they were innocent they would have kept running them.

It is interesting that nobody official is talking about the wings but it is going to be interesting to see how the Stangs go in Perth. All cars will now have to pass a deflection test just like was imposed on F1 for the same reasons.

Nobody ever caught the Nissan team for cheating in Group A either but now the guys running them in historics have to present them as raced, so they have boost controllers and all sorts of other goodies they were not supposed to have back in the day.

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Not a good look really and considering it is a grey area in the rules, to officially penalise your wonderful "new" manufacturer for their participation.



The mufflers are 100% illegal in the spirit of the rules and they were dangerous. If they were innocent they would have kept running them.

LOL! Nice troll.

"It is also not illegal or even a grey area under the current wording of the ballast rules, just a creative interpretation of the regulations."

https://autoaction.com.au/2019/03/15...ity-row-erupts


“"I believe we were running those mufflers as early as Phillip Island last year,” said Story.
“There was regime change in the Supercars technical department. They didn’t like it; they asked us to change it -- and we did,” he explained."

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...slowed-117532/


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[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

"It is also not illegal or even a grey area under the current wording of the ballast rules, just a creative interpretation of the regulations."

You said it yourself. The heavy mufflers are external ballast, which is illegal, but the team used a grey area in the wording to use something that is against the spirit of the rule.

Penske found itself penalised in NASCAR in 2013 and 2017 for "grey areas" that Roger had to defend as "not cheating". Joey Logano won 1/3 of the races in 2017 until he was pinged, "encumbering" all the races won, finding 2 of the team's crew chiefs benched, and Roger Penske himself docked owners points and fined $200k.

You can read here from the man himself:

“I certainly don’t think it’s cheating,” Penske said. “You are looking at the rules and you are working in a gray area. We all work in the gray areas. We’re trying to be as competitive as we can be, we’ve got very creative minds and it takes a lot of creative minds to be competitive.”

So maybe 2019 is the year for "not cheating" in Supercars. Penkse is full of people very experienced with reading rule books, so you can't then complain when your interpretation and implementation of something outside the scope of the rules as they are written is cleaned up by a rule interpretation, midseason.

At least in the Supercars case, the results stand, but there is now clarity around the grey areas. Will it stop Scotty from winning? I'd suggest maybe not.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You said it yourself. The heavy mufflers are external ballast, which is illegal, but the team used a grey area in the wording to use something that is against the spirit of the rule.

Penske found itself penalised in NASCAR in 2013 and 2017 for "grey areas" that Roger had to defend as "not cheating". Joey Logano won 1/3 of the races in 2017 until he was pinged, "encumbering" all the races won, finding 2 of the team's crew chiefs benched, and Roger Penske himself docked owners points and fined $200k.

You sure enjoy clutching at straws.

Why don't we forget grey areas altogether, and look into how TWR cheated extensively in the ETCC and the BTCC.

And from that lineage we should thus conclude HRT were cheating, and by association, WAU would/must be too.

[gtcapri]

Cmon Mixer your better than that. You could apply the same liberal interpretation of reading the rules to advantage by practicably EVERY team in pit lane. 888 have been the masters of it. Good on em. It yielded results. The games changing like it did last year when 888 debuted the ZB with composite panels.

Leaded mufflers or lead lining between the muffler and the floor? Ones a grey area, the others illegal. 888 had flexing splitters/wings in 09.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Except for 2 teams

Originally Posted by Forda

And around 50% of the series' fanbase.

What were your thoughts at the time when CAMS added weight and boost restrictions to the R32 GTR?

This thread's unfortunately be derailed; but would genuinely like to hear from Nissan fans from the Group A days, on their thoughts on how the R32 Nissan GTR was nobbled by CAMS, to try and make the Group A Commodores appear more competitive at the time.

[Umai Naa]

Except GMS admitted to manipulating the test equipment to make their cars appear legal.

I also recall a time when Ford supplied it's preferred teams with light weight bodyshells.

[Forda]

Yes Bob, just like you are now - bought and sold.
I miss the old, independent Umai....

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I also recall a time when Holden supplied it's preferred teams with light weight A9X bodyshells.

Then threatened to pull out of Group C when caught by Cams.








and the stories and legends from every manufacturer go on and on.....




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[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You said it yourself. The heavy mufflers are external ballast, which is illegal, but the team used a grey area in the wording to use something that is against the spirit of the rule.

You make me laugh.




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