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Old 20 Jun 2019, 11:30 (Ref:3913067)   #31
Mike Bell
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Yes, because it's covered by the existing yellow flag rules: racing resumes at the next marshal's post showing a green flag (it's just a very long yellow flag zone).
Of course.... Hence the reason I couldn’t find anything specific!

Thanks.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 11:31 (Ref:3913068)   #32
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Safety Car Regulations:
Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.10
Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 2

Full Course Yellow / Code 60 Regulations
Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.5.5b
Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 3 for Code 60 as FCY is not in the regs

Safety car lines 1 and 2 are there in International events to indicate where a competitor entering or leaving the pits under a safety car situation can overtake the safety car and other competitors when entering the pits or leaving the pits and rejoining the track. They do not allow any competitors still on the track to overtake another competitor.

All of the above should be highlighted in any driver briefing
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 12:09 (Ref:3913076)   #33
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Ah, so the SC regs are in the blue book! In an appendix.... Thanks.

The MSUK is very clear in para 1.12 that overtaking is strictly forbidden until the start signal at the start/finish line is passed. I’m assuming that’s why UK organisers stopped allowing it.

But FIA ISC App H 2.9.15 doesn't state whether cars can or cannot overtake when green flags are shown, so must be at the discretion of organisers? I’ll have to dig up briefing notes from the last race......

At least we’re getting somewhere. Thanks SWC for pointing me in the right direction!
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 13:30 (Ref:3913088)   #34
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Safety Car - ISC App H Article 2.10.10 states:

All the competing cars must then form up in line behind the
safety car no more than five car lengths apart, and overtaking,
with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach
the Line (or the next race neutralisation end point) after the
safety car has returned to the pit lane. Overtaking will be
permitted under the following circumstances:
– if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car;
– under Article 2.10.18;
– any car entering the pits may pass another car or the
safety car after it has crossed the first safety car line, as
defined under Article 2.10.2;
– any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car
on the track before it crosses the second safety car line, as
defined under Article 2.10.2;
– when the safety car is returning to the pit lane or its intermediate
position, it may be overtaken by cars on the track
once it has crossed the safety car line;
– any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the
safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 2.10.14) may
be overtaken;
– if any car slows with an obvious problem.

I have made the word "Line" bold above. This is the Control Line, otherwise known as the finish line


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Old 20 Jun 2019, 16:32 (Ref:3913142)   #35
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When I search for Appendix H it brings up 2012 or 2016 documents, neither of which have the wording you’ve copied!

I’ll have to try harder to find a current version......

Found it! Thanks again for your help.

Last edited by Mike Bell; 20 Jun 2019 at 17:14.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 17:57 (Ref:3913151)   #36
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Only this part "if any car slows with an obvious problem" can be discussed. Depending on the CoC interpretation a slowing car must leave the track limits before you're allowed to overtake it. In principle you're not allowed to "help" it doing so …
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 19:26 (Ref:3913164)   #37
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If you’ve got a problem and make it known to following cars so that they can overtake, that should be enough.

But I would like to see the next paragraph being used more....
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 08:15 (Ref:3913250)   #38
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When I search for Appendix H it brings up 2012 or 2016 documents, neither of which have the wording you’ve copied!

I’ll have to try harder to find a current version......

Found it! Thanks again for your help.
Of course, wouldn't it be a lot easier to navigate/find the appropriate regulation(s) if we had a printed copy to consult?
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 08:28 (Ref:3913255)   #39
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The current ISC and its relevant appendices are available on the FiA website under Sport, Regulations, International Sporting Code and Appendices

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

The MSUK Blue Book is available online here

https://www.motorsportuk.org/News-Pu...tions/Yearbook

and if you want a hardcopy you need to email MUK and request one

As they are both PDFs, they are easily searchable for key words
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 09:58 (Ref:3913274)   #40
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Thank you again. I found ISC App H yesterday via FIA and it’s now bookmarked!
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 12:25 (Ref:3913293)   #41
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But we’re still no closer to finding the reason why the rule was adopted!
FIA introduced it originally, I'm pretty sure for F1.

And since their whole approach to the Safety Car is to make it not the same as in America because they can't be seen to be adopting their idea, they've pretty much got it wrong from the start and continued getting it wrong with every amendment since. National bodies have then pretty much adopted the same, generally in the hope of avoiding confusion.

I've never understood the start line reasoning, if it's safe to race, it's safe everywhere, so get on and do it. The only issue is if flaggies aren't all on comms, and we're often not, then you can't put the greens out at the same time everywhere. But that's still less of a disadvantage than having to follow someone for half a lap.
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Old 21 Jun 2019, 15:18 (Ref:3913338)   #42
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FIA introduced it originally, I'm pretty sure for F1.

And since their whole approach to the Safety Car is to make it not the same as in America because they can't be seen to be adopting their idea, they've pretty much got it wrong from the start and continued getting it wrong with every amendment since. National bodies have then pretty much adopted the same, generally in the hope of avoiding confusion.

I've never understood the start line reasoning, if it's safe to race, it's safe everywhere, so get on and do it. The only issue is if flaggies aren't all on comms, and we're often not, then you can't put the greens out at the same time everywhere. But that's still less of a disadvantage than having to follow someone for half a lap.
The voice of reason! Thank you.
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 06:48 (Ref:3913427)   #43
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In karting we use the Battenburg flag (yellow/black squares) so the field closes up behind the leader. I saw it used on a car race track just the once, and it was a total disaster with random groups of cars driving at random speeds. Totally defeated the point.

As you say, if only there were a central point of reference with it all written down so we could refer to it online. You could print it in a book if you wanted, too. I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding".

Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself.

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Old 22 Jun 2019, 10:01 (Ref:3913441)   #44
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I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 10:14 (Ref:3913443)   #45
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I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?
I did wonder if you would post, Claire, but appreciate there have been other things on your mind.

As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly.

Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens......
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