March 772P - 778

[Kevin Miller]

Dear All, my brother suggested I use this site to trace history of my March, hope I don't bore you with all the details. Sitting in my garage is MARCH with chassis plate 772-05 attached to monocoque tub 773:36. Bought by me in May 1999 off a guy in Australia who had done a deal with Garry Cliff (Magnum Motorsport) in New Zealand in 1998. Garry Cliff had acquired the car from John MacKinlay (Auckland) around Nov.96 and John acquired it possibly late '94 from Kenny Smith. The NZ advertisement (NZ Speedsport No.88) suggests it was an ex Riley car and it was called a 77B. However I talked to Brett and his father, John and the details didn't ring a bell with them. Also Kenny Smith was a bit vague, thought it wasn't the ex-Dave Saunders car but possibly the ex-Giltrap car. That is about all I know of NZ history. Then there is the European history!! It is well documented that 772-05 (with tub 772:05) was the Hart powered car that Giacomelli drove in the first four races in 1977. According to Duncan R. records my tub,(773:36) was in 77B-16 being tested at Silverston on 15/2/77 with a BMW and FT200. This package was rebadged? as the first '77 prototype 772P-U1. This prototype does the first four races with P.Neve, A.Ribeiro and J.Mass as drivers. Come Vallelunga May 15th Giacomelli gets to drive the P car and Alex Ribeiro gets stuck with 772-05(slower). According to Autosport May 19 pg.40 race report about the P car and I quote 'This was not the same chassis that had won the previous two races in the hands of Jochen Mass. After its Nurburgring victory it was found (literally) to be falling apart at the seams, especially around the rear bulkhead, so a completely new chassis was built with a stronger monocoque, a revised F1-type nose subframe and strengthened bulkheads' etc. etc. Another Autosport report June 2 pg.3 suggest that there is a rift between Ribeiro and March, although March deny it. However Ribiero goes on to drive a Chevron on June 26. I can only assume it is because he got to drive the slower wide bodied car and was not happy. So, after Vallelunga we seem to have tub 773:36 and wide bodied 772-05 both sitting forlornly in the March factory (772-05 does not sufface again in '77). Giacomelli goes on for the rest of the season in the prototype U1. My theory is that March build up another prototype (spare?) using the reglued/rerivetted 773:36 tub and all the F2 mechanicals off 772-05 (possibly for Giacomelli) and this is why I have this combination in my garage. I can find no mention of a second protoype being built, however, miraculously a second one appears at Donington on Oct 30 with Marc Surer as driver. Alex Ribeiro has been put back in U1 while Giacomelli moves on to the 782 prototype for this final race of the season. 772-05 appears again in 1978 with Sergio Mangotti listed as the driver at Nurburgring and Mugello. I would love to see a photo at this time to check if it is the wide bodied tub or the narrow sidepod P configuration. I have no information between the 1978 appearance and the mid 90's recent history. Can any of you guys out there shed some light on this little problem. One other minor clue is that on one of the spun rear rims (composite wheels) is written Shierson's name. Possibly tagged with a name while being repaired? Any info will be gratefully accepted. Hopefully attached is a photo of the car in NZ sometime in mid '90s.

[Chris Townsend]

Kevin

Welcome! My understanding of the 772/772P issue was that March tubs changed design radically with the 75 model and that the 772 had much in common with that. To get back to a slimmer line I thought they used a 742 tub, but clearly not.
Certainly a number of 742s ended up in the narrow pod configuration in the late 70s, mimicking what the factory had done with their cars. [I remember Carlo Giorgio running like this, and the Richard Jones 742.]

However, if you are thinking that 772-05 as raced by Mingotti in 78 is your car with the narrow tub and pods, as raced by Surer at Donington 77 that's not the case.
Both the 772Ps have post March history.U1 goes to Norman Dickson and is raced in both 78 and 79 in the Aurora AFX series [in 79 it's driven by Brancatelli and Pascal Witmeur rather than Dickson].
The Surer car, called U2 by F1R, is sold to Patsy McGarrity for Atlantic racing in Ireland in 78 then comes back to England in 79 where Kim Mather and Mike Wilds race it, with Pontins sponsorship in the Aurora series.
So U2 can't be the Mingotti car with a 772-5 plate and a different tub.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris, I think we may have another mess here .

In front of me I have ex. D.R. 13/12/02 the following ,

77B-16
B.M.W. F2
White
Monocoque no. 773-36
Gearbox no. FT200-1147
Test Car .
First run at Silverstone 15th. February 1977
Chassis no. changed to 772P-U1


If 772P-U1 goes to Norman Dickson etc. how come the tub. 773-36 is still in Kevin,s car .??????????????
Bryan.

[Dan Rear]

Where does the Bernard de D '778' fit into all this? A new 77B tub maybe with a 2-litre motor, that pre-dated the works take on these matters - much like the Beuttler '721G'... And where did that car, ie the 778, go after 1977??

[allenbrown]

We've also discussed the Crompton 772P on a few occasions. I spotted two references to it in Autosport.

1) Autosport 10 Aug 1978 p45. Godfrey Crompton has bought a "newly built March 772P from Peter Bloore". He also bought a 762 from MRE for its Hart and sold the 762 on to Turnbull.

2) Autosport 6 Sep 1978 p54. Tony Westwood is mentioned going well at Prescott in his "ex Godfrey Crompton March 77P".

Crompton clearly had cash so I doubt he would have bought some old bitza from Bloore. As it's more likely to have been built from new components, I've tentatively given this third 772P an identity of 772P ['B'].

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

If that is the case then I suspect the reporter may have been inferring that it was the first time at that venue or even the first time he had seen the car!

OK, I'll go look it up again and give you chapter and verse.

[driftwood]

Some guys need to get out more!!
Oulton Park Gold cup good enough for ya or maybe goodwood revival
Regarding 772P cars im sure the ex Norm dickinson car now with Holmes is true car thru time its the other chassis that has been "cloned"
so maybe the B designation applies to that chassis # for the "suspect2 chassis

with regards tio say the 772/782 [6]
is the car not a 772/6 [782] drivers name to defien why its say [782]
the car was and is always 772/6 on tag with 772 or 782 or whatever body fitted
cos im gonna split hairs here for the right reasons
the 752 762 772 tub is likely to be the same item BUT 782 is different thinner and a pressed alloy front bulkhead
poss uprights are different-wishbones will be for sure in track or wheelbase castor camber somewhere in the scheme of things
im not a march anorak but i am aware of fundamental differences to justify yr chassis numbering system!!

You must also consider the driver with a car trying to get his car "newer" by adding on the latest body he could acquire at the time whether it was that seasons design or just 1 year old- juts like people do with the car reg numbers!

[allenbrown]

Oh no, another anorak!

Yes, it's 772/6 and will always be 772/6. I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't. 782 updates don't change its identity, they just change the way it's described. Eyles car, as an example, is photographed in Autosport in early 1985 and looks just like a 782. It has 782 sidepods and a 782 nosecone. Yes, I totally understand that the underlying tub of a 782 is very different to the earlier tubs and no, I don't understand what changes had been made under the skin to the Eyles car. If I use a designation of 772/782, all I'm aiming to record is that the 772 had been upgraded in some way with 782 bits.

Mather's 772P was, according to Autosport, rebuilt on/around a "newly-acquired" 782 tub after its accident and was further updated with 79-spec sidepods. It appears to have kept its 772P plate but is it now a 772P or is it a 782? It would be interesting to find out the tub number on that car today.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

I think that there is something to what Allen says about keeping the identity of the original plate and car within a modified description. So that the Orgee 1979 car would be "March 772P [732-1]-BDA Richardson"

However... I don't think we should be imposing descriptions on these cars that depend on our reading of the modifications. As far as possible we need to stick to the description given of the car at the time [in programmes and entry lists if possible, as the owner's description]. These may vary of course, sometimes from meeting to meeting. The use of the original model number and type in the chassis number brackets is the constant factor behind any modification.

Now going out...

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

However... I don't think we should be imposing descriptions on these cars that depend on our reading of the modifications. As far as possible we need to stick to the description given of the car at the time [in programmes and entry lists if possible, as the owner's description]. These may vary of course, sometimes from meeting to meeting. The use of the original model number and type in the chassis number brackets is the constant factor behind any modification.

Completely agree with that. I picked a bad example with the Eyles car as that is always called a 772 despite its appearance. You chose a much better example with the Orgee car.

Given the second tub that is known to have gone into the Orgee car, it will appear in the forthcoming 1979 Atlantic results as 772P [732/1-2]; i.e. adding a -2 to denote a second tub, a notation introduced by Denis Jenkinson in 1970.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Allen

Problem with putting the extra tub notation is Jenks was there to note the new iteration. We weren't! We are relying on press reports or drivers to tell us and so it's a hit and miss affair. The first Orgee Atlantic car had a number of new tubs.
When Geoff Friswell bought it it already had a 742 tub in it, so presumably Calvert had improved it, and we don't know if March had retubbed the car in 1973 as well
Friswell put a new one [742] in in autumn 1976 after the Gold Cup accident
Orgee put one in in 1979 late season, probably after an accident at Oulton.

The car could be on its third or fourth tub.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Very true. It will be hit and miss and more miss than hit.

All I'm trying to do is to note the ones we know about. We'll definitely miss a few but it really helps when someone claims to have bought a tub from X and built it up into a new car to have noted when that car was retubbed.

E.g. the tub bought from Dave Prophet by Roy Lane at the end of 1970. I still haven't figured out why Prophet would have had a damaged tub and I can't now be bothered to work through Autosport looking for it. Similarly, Duncan Fox's ongoing work on the 'A' and 'B' M10 tubs is aided by knowing if a car was retubbed. The 'A' tubs seem to continue well into the M10B production but the number of M10Bs that were rebuilt on a new tub at one point or another is quite problematic.

[Dan Rear]

On this subject, anyone anything further on the de Dryver 1977 F2 March. Described as a "778", or maybe that was a misprint for "77B". Whatever, it looked pretty similar to the 772Ps that year. IIRC Bill Gubelman was invloved with the team that year, was it a new one built on an old tub of his ??

[Steve Wilkinson]

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.

For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.
For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

I wasn't aware Jonathan Varley was selling -U2, I was chatting to him at the week-end and he never mentioned he was selling. Are you sure it wasn't -U1 that was for sale?

[Dan Rear]

Steve, Kim just said he'd seen 'my old March' advertised, I presume he meant his 772P, which was -U2.

[driftwood]

772p u2 is allegedly in Canada being restored; he bought it as a basket case.
772p u is in UK with John Holmes.

[allenbrown]

To celebrate the new thread, I've done some digging on the Bernard De Dryver March 778.

Whenever MN or Autosport show an entry list, this car is listed as a 778 so it would appear that that's the way it was entered. Autosport, as usual, follow what's written down and refer to it as a 778 in their reports. "M.T." at Motoring News is more detailed in his reports and lists it as a 77B on his grids. He also refers to it as a 77B in the text of his reports. At Thruxton, MN shows chassis numbers for the cars but list De Dryver's as "77B/-". MN also mentions that the car is now to full works 772P spec.

F1R consistently use the number 778-15 for this car, implying that it was actually chassis 77B-15. However, as we don't know where they got this number from, it's impossible to be conclusive. Normally, we could trust F1R to have noted a number in person at the track but if "M.T." couldn't find a number for his report, maybe F1R got it from somewhere else.

Adam - if you're reading this - do your March records show anything about 77B-15, the '778' or the Bloore-built 772P of Crompton?

Allen

[Adam Ferrington]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Adam - if you're reading this - do your March records show anything about 77B-15, the '778' or the Bloore-built 772P of Crompton?

Allen

Allen, Unfortunately no to all three questions. Just 2 772Ps listed, no 778.

[Dan Rear]

As I've said before on here, the de Dryver 77B/778 I noted v early in 77 at a Mallory Sat morning 'General Test Day'. Though I was only 14 then and only vaguely interested in tub ids, I clearly recall the plate calling it a "778".

The Bowtell 77B from a few years later looked v similar to the de D car, but that may be another story entirely.....

[Chris Townsend]

The de Dryver car certainly wasn't 77B-15. That car was sold to Mike Rocke by Doug Shierson [Rocke still has the bill of sale]. The car was destroyed at Trois Rivieres in 1978 and Lloyds took the remains to sell as salvage.

Chris

[allenbrown]

OK, thanks, back to the drawing board then ...

[allenbrown]

A reference to 772P-U1. George McMillan's "ex-Giacomelli" 772P in Scottish libre (Autosport 16 Oct 1980 p47).

Lawson's car was called the sister car implying it's 772P-U2 but I'll take that with a pinch of salt. Also, Dzierzek was racing the Lawson 772P at Croft 19 Oct 1980 (AS 30 Oct 1980 p58).

[Steve Wilkinson]

Jonathan Varley had a very long trip across the grass at Cadwell Park on Sunday. The car ended up hitting the tyre wall head on. Scrambled the nose cone & nose box and did some damage to one front suspension mounts but should be repaired soon.