Complaining to the referee

[Born Racer]

Who else is getting fed up of drivers complaining on the radio (usually indirectly) to the referee (race control)? Is it just part of the game now to try to influence decisions? I'm not sure it has much effect anyway, as the decisions seem to be made independently of such complaints (and are haphazard at times).

Pérez seems to be a serial complainer when it comes to any move or defence on him and I don't know if it's making drivers more sensitive to every possible argument they can make about how they were unfairly "pushed off the track".

I sort of feel most of the time they should just get on with it really.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Who else is getting fed up of drivers complaining on the radio (usually indirectly) to the referee (race control)? Is it just part of the game now to try to influence decisions? I'm not sure it has much effect anyway, as the decisions seem to be made independently of such complaints (and are haphazard at times).

Pérez seems to be a serial complainer when it comes to any move or defence on him and I don't know if it's making drivers more sensitive to every possible argument they can make about how they were unfairly "pushed off the track".

I sort of feel most of the time they should just get on with it really.

The drivers are told by the teams to complain about everything - regardless of whether or not they feel they were wrong'd. Additionally, we're at the mercy of whatever the TV director decides we need to see.

[Mike Harte]

Yes and no, BR.

The problem is that unlike many other sports (let's pretend that F1 is a genuine sport), "play" cannot be stopped while the referee (race control) looks at all the data available to decide whether every move was "legal". In virtually every team sport, the team rushes to the referee or umpire to complain about x or y, play stops and video is reviewed to resolve the problem. It happens even in tennis.

As has been stated on the pages a few times, the teams even instruct their drivers to whinge so that race control can have a look at whatever the driver is crying about. And yes, it does seem distasteful.

[TrapezeArtist]

F1 loves to layer rules upon rules upon rules, so how about one that says
"No penalty will be applied if another driver from another team complains about it on the radio."
That would shut them up.

[chillibowl]

probably a net positive for me.

for example, i like that drivers are calling out other drivers for exceeding track limits as it adds a bit of public pressure (by design i suppose as race control are the ones who choose to share those messages on the broadcast) on the officials to monitor out of bounds far more closely then they used to a few years ago.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

probably a net positive for me.

for example, i like that drivers are calling out other drivers for exceeding track limits...

Usually by a driver who has just been penalised for track limits......

[S griffin]

Personally I feel it's getting a bit much now. I can understand drivers getting annoyed if someone blatantly pushes them off track, but most of the time it seems unnecessary. Of course they get frustrated in the heat of the moment. For me it's sad and in some ways pathetic the teams instruct the drivers to complain. Whatever happened to drivers talking it out amongst themselves? It's getting dreary all this complaining. Every driver makes mistakes, so it sounds hypocritical a lot of the time too.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Whatever happened to drivers talking it out amongst themselves?

Would that level of "self policing" work much like the unwritten rules regarding overtaking on the out lap just before the start of a qualifying hot lap? Unwritten rules are just a place where someone is going to be taken advantage of when they follow these "rules". Those qualifying "rules" are broken regularly these days. Especially late in Q3.

What are the rules, who enforces then, how much leeway should be given, when leeway is given, is that not inconsistent enforcement that we complain about?

This video of Massa and Kubica fighting in 2007 Japanese GP. Lots of pushing each other off track and off track passes. Today that would be high drama. Is that the level of "looseness" and "just let the drivers figure it out" that we want? Maybe it is, but where is the line drawn? What is acceptable and what is not? When championships are on the line, why not use any advantage you can get including calling out enforceable rule infractions?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxUu36-uYw

Richard

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Would that level of "self policing" work much like the unwritten rules regarding overtaking on the out lap just before the start of a qualifying hot lap? Unwritten rules are just a place where someone is going to be taken advantage of when they follow these "rules". Those qualifying "rules" are broken regularly these days. Especially late in Q3.

What are the rules, who enforces then, how much leeway should be given, when leeway is given, is that not inconsistent enforcement that we complain about?

This video of Massa and Kubica fighting in 2007 Japanese GP. Lots of pushing each other off track and off track passes. Today that would be high drama. Is that the level of "looseness" and "just let the drivers figure it out" that we want? Maybe it is, but where is the line drawn? What is acceptable and what is not? When championships are on the line, why not use any advantage you can get including calling out enforceable rule infractions?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxUu36-uYw

Richard

That was a great battle between Massa and Kubica. I remember it well. It was basically Villenueve/Arnoux all over again. Just hard racing, without being malicious and no complaining, no worries about track limits. That's how F1 should be. It's getting sad when drivers can't enjoy battles because they are always complaining about what the other driver has done

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That was a great battle between Massa and Kubica. I remember it well. It was basically Villenueve/Arnoux all over again. Just hard racing, without being malicious and no complaining, no worries about track limits. That's how F1 should be. It's getting sad when drivers can't enjoy battles because they are always complaining about what the other driver has done

The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by morninggents

The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.

That is unfortunate, Peter, however a lot of the problem is that drivers in all forms of racing, from F1 down to the humble clubbie, are incapable of policing themselves and driving responsibly.

You and I both raced a long time ago, and I can recall being told at the drivers' briefing that unacceptable driving would result in that driver being black flagged and excluded from further racing that day.

When was the last time you saw a black flag shown for a driving infraction? I can't remember it was so long ago and drivers are now dealt with, usually, after a race.

It's a bit like life in general; there seems to be a lot of lacking in self-discipline nowadays.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by morninggents

The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.

Exactly! 9 times out of 10 they will investigate every bit of incident, no matter how minor and even if the driver instigating it ruins his own race more. Drivers make mistakes and there will be incidents from time to time. The stewards should concentrate more on the dangerous/dirty stuff. The lack of consistency doesn't help much

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That was a great battle between Massa and Kubica. I remember it well. It was basically Villenueve/Arnoux all over again. Just hard racing, without being malicious and no complaining, no worries about track limits. That's how F1 should be. It's getting sad when drivers can't enjoy battles because they are always complaining about what the other driver has done

Sure it's enjoyable to watch, but my follow up question stands... Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply?

Richard

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply? Richard

Agreed. Just one thing: is it really racing? if yes, since when? Or did it stop being at one point… When?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Sure it's enjoyable to watch, but my follow up question stands... Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply?

Exactly. Taking the recent Malaysian GP as an example, the "no limits" approach would have allowed Hamilton to keep his two place gain by running off the road at the first corner. But then, if everyone knew that was the rule, the entire field would have cut the corner and driven across the run-off.

[VIVA GT]

Although I understand the reasons behind drivers doing this I too find it annoying. To me it makes them sound like spoiled children whinging to their mother about what some other kid has done to them in the playground!

[Greem]

We don't get to hear everything, so take what we do get to hear with a pinch of something savoury.

Remember that whoever chooses the comms we hear, it's their agenda we're hearing.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Greem

We don't get to hear everything, so take what we do get to hear with a pinch of something savoury.

Remember that whoever chooses the comms we hear, it's their agenda we're hearing.

That's the trouble Greem, everything we hear or are told appears to have a hidden agenda behind it...

[bjohnsonsmith]

The radio messages have been included to spice things up for the viewer and have become part of the entertainment, with the TV race director deciding which ones are going to be aired for maximum effect.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The radio messages have been included to spice things up for the viewer and have become part of the entertainment, with the TV race director deciding which ones are going to be aired for maximum effect.

Yes, it's up to the TV director to air the messages, but it is those in the FIA's Race director's room that releases them to the TV director. Not all messages are permitted by the FIA to be broadcast.

Something else that needs to be taken into account is that the messages that are broadcasted are done so with a time gap whilst the decisions are made about whether they will be aired.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Yes, it's up to the TV director to air the messages, but it is those in the FIA's Race director's room that releases them to the TV director. Not all messages are permitted by the FIA to be broadcast.

Something else that needs to be taken into account is that the messages that are broadcasted are done so with a time gap whilst the decisions are made about whether they will be aired.

I know the radio messages aren't broadcast live.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Yes, it's up to the TV director to air the messages, but it is those in the FIA's Race director's room that releases them to the TV director. Not all messages are permitted by the FIA to be broadcast.

This brings up an interesting question. So for F1TV, you can watch and listen to each driver's in-car camera and audio. While there is a natural delay, is someone monitoring ALL driver audio at that FIA level and then pushing a mute button on some audio? I suspect not. I frequently rewind during a race and then switch to the in-car video/audio and listen to what was being said and when.

I don't know at all, but I can imagine that the FIA race director reviewing which of "their" communications between themselves and the teams might be provided to the racing director. But that the TV director may at any time replay audio that was already heard on the in-car feed live (or nearly live). And I wonder if teams have the ability to selectively mute driver to car audio? But even then, that seems unlikely. They would need something like a 10 second delay loop and some type of rules as when to mute and when not. It seems fraught with the potential for error.

Re-broadcast in which they may want to strip out foul language is easy to do after the fact.

Also, there are times such as when a car is in the garage in which the in-car video and audio is cut and not shown in the F1TV app.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Greem

We don't get to hear everything, so take what we do get to hear with a pinch of something savoury.

Remember that whoever chooses the comms we hear, it's their agenda we're hearing.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

That's the trouble Greem, everything we hear or are told appears to have a hidden agenda behind it...

What do you mean by hidden agenda?

I thought the agenda of what they chose is very obvious. Not really hidden. It is to chose dramatic messages or ones that provoke a reaction from the audience. Sometimes this might add understanding to the race.

basically, this:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The radio messages have been included to spice things up for the viewer and have become part of the entertainment, with the TV race director deciding which ones are going to be aired for maximum effect.

[Sodemo]

I think its been going on for longer than people think. There was a chronically wet race at Sepang back in the early 2000s, most of the cars were on wets, but the Ferraris were on inters. Schumacher and Barrichello were reportedly on the radios telling race control it was too wet, likely because they knew their tyres were not suited to the conditions.

[Born Racer]

And that, Gentlemen, is why I was thinking it was unnecessary for teams to get drivers to call out incidents the feel are worthy of investigation, but if it's all monitored anyway, why should it influence anything?

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

F1 loves to layer rules upon rules upon rules, so how about one that says
"No penalty will be applied if another driver from another team complains about it on the radio."
That would shut them up.

I suspect the tongue is partially in cheek, but it's s good idea! Albeit with at least one flaw - we would see drivers say things like "I don't things in code, like "I don't think much of Ferrari's strategy!".