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Old 18 Nov 2019, 22:44 (Ref:3941506)   #51
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What's that got to do with the valve train?
The valve train was stressed by an engine that wasn't performing as it should?
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 00:28 (Ref:3941514)   #52
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They were seemingly on a mission to find something - anything, potentially wrong with car 17 post-Bathurst.

Just imagine if they hadn't created that nothingburger - the next step would probably have involved running a ruler over the wreckage of car 17 at the GC600, where they would have found a goldmine of issues, including a mangled engine with gaping tolerances to comb through; and bodywork 'irregularities', such as missing doors, and splitters, etc 'out of spec' due to disintegration.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 00:59 (Ref:3941521)   #53
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They were seemingly on a mission to find something - anything, potentially wrong with car 17 post-Bathurst.
And there's a problem with that?

Once DJRTP started telling porkies about the Fabian/Bathurst SC episode, the investigation was always going to be rigorous.

Do you think if the ATO catches you out falsifying a tax return they won't scrutinise you with a fine-toothed comb next time?
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 01:34 (Ref:3941522)   #54
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Oil and coolant can blend in a number of ways.

Even more so when you've got ancillary oil and water heaters that are plugged in pre start-up.

I don't think that caused valves or pushrods being too long...
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 02:42 (Ref:3941528)   #55
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Once again, the tolerances relevant to a healthy engine, or on one that is not?
That is avoiding the question, how many sheets of paper make it an illegal engine. I am just extrapolating from your comment of "it was just a sheet of paper", if that is your basis for defense of the measurement then where do the sheets of paper stop and the motor be deemed illegal. It is a foolish way to defend an illegality because in reality there is now an open tolerance with no hard shut measurement, you must be able to see that? An unhealthy engine has nothing to do with it, if the motor can be measured then it isn't that unhealthy.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 02:51 (Ref:3941529)   #56
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Oil and coolant can blend in a number of ways.

Even more so when you've got ancillary oil and water heaters that are plugged in pre start-up.

I don't think that caused valves or pushrods being too long...
I am curious about how pre-heating oil and water would result in a mix of both. Remember that they reckon it occurred on a dyno before being installed and run at the track. I have watched all the commentary on this issue for a while and now question some of the assertions being made. For all I know it may be possible because I have never pre-heated a motor at the track and I am interested in it and the problems it can cause.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 02:56 (Ref:3941530)   #57
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I am curious about how pre-heating oil and water would result in a mix of both. Remember that they reckon it occurred on a dyno before being installed and run at the track. I have watched all the commentary on this issue for a while and now question some of the assertions being made. For all I know it may be possible because I have never pre-heated a motor at the track and I am interested in it and the problems it can cause.
What I'm suggesting is that there's potential risk of contamination throughout the various processes for operating a supercars engine.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 03:02 (Ref:3941532)   #58
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And there's a problem with that?

Once DJRTP started telling porkies about the Fabian/Bathurst SC episode, the investigation was always going to be rigorous.

Do you think if the ATO catches you out falsifying a tax return they won't scrutinise you with a fine-toothed comb next time?
DJRTP said there was an overheating issue with Car 12, and slowing the car down during the SC period corrected that; all of which the telemetry data proved to indeed be the case.

I guess some of this situation could be comparable to ATO, in that extending a generally-accepted 20 second SC buffer out to 47 seconds is akin to claiming double the unsubstantiated deduction limit without having receipts.

But the ATO wouldn't fine you $250k for that, nor would they necessarily then proceed to disassemble and comb through a direct family member's records.


But Supercars and CAMS were on an ongoing mission to hold back Car 17 one way or another, and managed to succeed on the flimsiest of evidence - a minute tolerance on some, but not all, of the valve lifts; in a crook/rooted/dying engine.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 04:10 (Ref:3941539)   #59
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DJRTP said there was an overheating issue with Car 12, and slowing the car down during the SC period corrected that; all of which the telemetry data proved to indeed be the case.
If you read the full report, the "over-heating" excuse for the slow-down was proved to be BS and they (Fabian and his engineer) agreed that the best way to reduce engine temperature is to use less throttle, use the highest gear possible, and use speed to maximise air-flow.

The telemetry data was offered but was not presented.

Not saying 12 was not over-heating - it was - but they did admit it was not the reason they slowed, and they did admit that is not the best way to cool it.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 04:52 (Ref:3941541)   #60
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If you read the full report, the "over-heating" excuse for the slow-down was proved to be BS and they (Fabian and his engineer) agreed that the best way to reduce engine temperature is to use less throttle, use the highest gear possible, and use speed to maximise air-flow.

The telemetry data was offered but was not presented.

Not saying 12 was not over-heating - it was - but they did admit it was not the reason they slowed, and they did admit that is not the best way to cool it.
The telemetry data was considered:
The Stewards had examined Supercars telemetry data for Car #12 which does reveal that the engine temperatures in Car #12 were over 110 degrees Celsius in racing conditions and that the temperature did drop during the Lap 134 Safety Car intervention.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/10/20...t-submissions/
However it was the 'debris' team code instruction and what ensued which was the main issue for car 12, and they paid a handsome price for all that.


The issues relevant to this topic though are the record number of scrutineering checks done on DJRTP this year (where's the 'parity'?), pinging them for a minor tolerance in a flogged engine, the big deal made in announcing the whole thing two rounds later, purposely delaying those results, and then pushing car 17 to the back of the Sandown grid after they qualified there fairly.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 05:12 (Ref:3941542)   #61
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“When you win lots of races, you get checked by the scrutineers,’’ Johnson said.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 05:13 (Ref:3941543)   #62
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Supercars telemtry was considered. DJR requested to present their own telemtry but didn't, and even if they had it was a moot point anyway as they subsequetly admitted the slow down was nothing to do with the over-heating engine.

From the report: Ultimately DJRTP has not presented that telemetry data but, for the reasons explained below, even were it to support DJRTP's propositions, it would not answer nor even mitigate the breach we are considering.

Minor tolerance?

The spec is actually .700 with .400 lift on the cam with 1.75 rocker, but they get .010 margin...so they were actually .0135 over spec. How many sheets of paper is that?

From Stewards Report: He (DRD) also explained that there is already a tolerance or margin built into the Maximum Valve Lift in the ESD because the cam lift limit and the prescribed rocker ratio yield a theoretical lift value of 0.700”.

So if there was a tolerance plus a variance plus a buffer plus some leeway plus a margin for error, and they were then one sheet of paper over that? Add an allowance?

Front runners have always been scrutineered more often and more rigorously than cars that finish off the podium. With the amount of success Scotty has had there is nothing unusual that his car has been checked the most. Likewise, it is no coincidence that RBHRT are the second most scrutinised team.

Last edited by Jamolad; 19 Nov 2019 at 05:19.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 05:22 (Ref:3941544)   #63
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“When you win lots of races, you get checked by the scrutineers,’’ Johnson said.

“That’s been the case since Adam was a boy. What we’ve seen in 2019 has been another level of scrutiny, and in over 450 checks we failed once. And that check was done on a rooted engine.”

Johnson was adamant the Bathurst engine fault was a one off and the technical reports obtained by The Sunday Telegraph support his claim.

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Old 19 Nov 2019, 05:41 (Ref:3941547)   #64
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Get me the world's smallest violin. What a sack of clickbait, sob story for the billionaire grey area champions.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 06:36 (Ref:3941553)   #65
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Get me the world's smallest violin. What a sack of clickbait, sob story for the billionaire grey area champions.
This.Playing the victim is not a viable PR strategy for this team.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 06:41 (Ref:3941554)   #66
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What I'm suggesting is that there's potential risk of contamination throughout the various processes for operating a supercars engine.
That's a non answer at best without some assertions of how it could or might happen so I'll let that go through the keeper to the boundary. So many assertions from so many people with no foundation in all this but this is the internet after all.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 07:07 (Ref:3941557)   #67
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This.Playing the victim is not a viable PR strategy for this team.
Dick would moan if he found $50 in his pocket instead of the $10 he thought he had.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 07:18 (Ref:3941558)   #68
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Get me the world's smallest violin. What a sack of clickbait, sob story for the billionaire grey area champions.
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This.Playing the victim is not a viable PR strategy for this team.
They're not playing the victim, and given the relentless attacks they've endured, and the excessive fines they've paid, they've handled the situation really quite admirably.

The owner of the team running in second-place on the other hand comes across in the media as a sook by comparison.

When you look at the broader picture though, you'll see how closed the series can be, and how difficult things are made for anyone trying to introduce a new marque, particularly if they come up with something which is better designed yet still within the rules.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 07:23 (Ref:3941559)   #69
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It is all a whole lot of hot air, people trying to justify things with no basis of fact and sheets of paper flying around everywhere.....but this is the internet. I haven't read anything here that justifies what happened in any way. The team has not covered itself in glory and claiming harassment via the scrutineering process was definitely not a good look. Oh well, there is always next year to look forward to.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 07:41 (Ref:3941562)   #70
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...they've handled the situation really quite admirably.
Surely not doing unsporting things and not having tech breaches would be handling things better.

It's the approach the rest of the field are taking, and seems to be working well for them.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 07:54 (Ref:3941563)   #71
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Surely not doing unsporting things and not having tech breaches would be handling things better.

It's the approach the rest of the field are taking, and seems to be working well for them.
Is it? Didn't see them winning Bathurst or the championship.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 08:04 (Ref:3941568)   #72
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Not this year, but I've seen others win multiple Bathursts and Championships without paying record fines, having unsavoury headlines in mainstream media let alone motoring media, or having their victory described as "tainted" by legends of the sport and other competitors including teams that race for the same brand.

So it can be done fairly, because of the many times it has been done fairly, but only if you want to win it fairly.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 08:42 (Ref:3941575)   #73
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Dick would moan if he found $50 in his pocket instead of the $10 he thought he had.
Huh??? That sounds more like Roland and Brad Jones!!!
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 08:48 (Ref:3941576)   #74
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Surely not doing unsporting things and not having tech breaches would be handling things better.

It's the approach the rest of the field are taking, and seems to be working well for them.
You gotta be kidding surely, supercars technical department have thrown everything that could possibly thrown at the Mustang this year to stop them from winning, why wouldn't they be sceptical of any findings, it would be strange if they didn't?
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 09:22 (Ref:3941580)   #75
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Not kidding, and who said DJRTP are sceptical of the findings?

With the 'debriss' BS they accepted all findings and pleaded guilty to unsporting conduct.

The tech breach was there and Dick himself said it should not have happened.

"The Bathurst stuff shouldn’t have happened and we’ve paid the price,’’ Johnson said.

“We’ve been checked way more than any other team in pit lane and had not one other issue. We made a mistake, we’ve paid the penalty.’’

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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