What is the Real incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2?

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I haven't been in favor for the fuel flow sensors from the beginning in LMP1. What can they do that much less expensive air restrictors and torque sensors can't?

I know that the ACO and the FIA are pushing a green agenda, one that the factory teams at least in public agree with. But there's more than one way to reach that same goal, and I think that some are better all around for everyone aside from the fuel flow stuff. I wasn't a big fan of narrowing up the LMP1 cars, either. At least being about 4 inches wider would induce drag and limit top speeds.

The fuel flow sensors make the technology more focused on efficiency and road-car relevant than air restrictors and torque sensors. With an air restrictor you're allowed to use as much fuel as you want but you're limited on air, which means you can fuel out knock and a lot of other problems you may have with the engine. On a road car the situation is opposite, you're allowed to use as much air as you want but limited on the amount of fuel so the focus now becomes making the powertrain more efficient.

[skycafe]

Does the class need to 'market' efficiency? Aren't you doing that with the top class? I am not overly convinced that many are paying attention to this class anyway, given the performance level and lack of entries, is anyone even caring about efficiency levels?

Don't get me totally wrong, I am highly impressed with Rebellion, from presentation to performance, they are doing a great job, but at the same time I really don't care too much about how efficient they are. I would rather see them with more competition, whether that is somehow boosting them up to compete with The Factories, or just more competition within their class, making the class contest more valuable.

[Deleted]

I don't see the need for privateer fuel flow etc either, however in all of this we must remember there needs to be some sort of solid general philosophy connection between the nonhybrid and the hybrid cars. You know in order to continue classifying them as single unified LMP1. You don't want to distance the two worlds apart (no matter how much they might be in love with their separate sub trophy class ideology) in general structure. Otherwise we might just as well classify the nonhybrids as LMP2, the current LMP2 as LMP3, and the current LMP3 as LMP4.

(TBH the new spec-regs of LMP2 earn the status of third tier formula...)

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Chiana

You know in order to continue classifying them as single unified LMP1. You don't want to distance the two worlds apart (no matter how much they might be in love with their separate sub trophy class ideology)

Try explaining a sub class trophy to people that have basic troubles with multi-class racing, even when seeing prototypes and GT's together on track. I have followed multi-class racing for a around 50 years, over many various rules sets, and frankly this class is sort of a challenge when thinking about the overall spectrum of things. You have to admit, the Schrödinger's cat paradox is a bit easier to grasp.

I like underdogs, so I cheer Rebellion on for the efforts they are putting in. It is great for the sport, it is in the spirit of the sport, but dang, make their effort a bit easier by cutting some expenses I am not sure they need to be burdened with.

[skycafe]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/t...ateer-changes/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by skycafe

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/t...ateer-changes/

Interesting that the teams looking in don't think there is enough time to get a car sorted for next year. That would be about 9 months before the preseason test, and nobody (Dome) is starting from scratch. I guess I have no real feel for how long it should take to update a car to LMP1-L spec.

[Deleted]

The tone of the comments there supports my previous theory that Beaumesnil came up with the ideas himself half a year ago, drunk, and when he had nothing else to represent to the teams this was his only game plan and here we are

What's worse, and contradictory to the team comments, this is what he actually said during the presser: “We have to introduce these rules; we need to give time to people to get prepared..." well, then actually give them some time, and also don't change regs every 3 years...

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by joeb

Interesting that the teams looking in don't think there is enough time to get a car sorted for next year. That would be about 9 months before the preseason test, and nobody (Dome) is starting from scratch. I guess I have no real feel for how long it should take to update a car to LMP1-L spec.

As with all things how long it takes is a matter of how much money you have to spend and how well you want to do it. Given Strakka sat out over a season with the Dome we have some clues about where they stand on those questions.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The tone of the comments there supports my previous theory that Beaumesnil came up with the ideas himself half a year ago, drunk, and when he had nothing else to represent to the teams this was his only game plan and here we are

What's worse, and contradictory to the team comments, this is what he actually said during the presser: “We have to introduce these rules; we need to give time to people to get prepared..." well, then actually give them some time, and also don't change regs every 3 years...

2014-2017 is 4 years. 2018 would be the fifth and the new change. That's not that 'often'.

[LC2guy]

With Rebellion going to LMP2, I think my original question is answered. Shame that the ACO couldn't find a way to make it grow.

[Deleted]

The idiots at ACO missed the opportunity of having LMP1 (non-hybrid) back in the regional series. Even Rebellion cites it as one of the reasons for turning into LMP2 in their most recent press release, that they can run the thing anywhere.

Now that there's only that smoky CLM left they at least could make it eligible for ASLMS or whatever. Could hurt no-one. But they won't. The nonhybrids are dead and it's all over.

[Maelochs]

Got to say, it looks like WEC really wanted to make sure fans would have a real and reasonable topic on which to attack series management.

[Deleted]

Vincent Beaumesnil must surely have scrapped the hopes/delusions of "10-12 privateer cars in 2018" by now. Maybe they're all laughing about it right now. More partnership money for Oreca, Onroak and Zytek P2 spec supply lines, that's what really matters.

[MagVanisher]

Well, it's ACO's fault for prioritizing the manufacturers over privateers. I mean, they'll get screwed over once a manufacturer leaves.

But yeah, LMP2 is the way to go for now.

[Aysedasi]

With 3:30's now predicted for Le Mans, must be right.....

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

With 3:30's now predicted for Le Mans, must be right.....

Would it be right if the target time was 3:10, but the field consisted solely of spec Orecas?

[Maelochs]

Considering all factors, i can't get too down on FIA-WEC about how all this is working out.

LMP2 was supposed to be a cost-capped, no-development class all along ... a bargain class for rich gentlemen and up-and coming hot shoes. Limiting the field to four chassis and one engine really isn't much of a limit at all ... most fo the time there were only about four chassis (although some which were effectively identical had different names) and all were Nissan-powered.

If LMP2 can continue to be financially feasible for enough teams that it can fill the available grid spots, and the cars are significantly faster, why should I complain?

LMP1-P was not working. There was no innovation because all the money went into reliability, which was never achieved. There was no real reward, so no one was really interested (and vice versa.) it was designed to be a high-priced "first loser" class from the outset ... which in retrospect is obviously a stupid idea.

Rebellion used to be a tightly-run and highly successful team. I think the costs of running LMP1-P in WEC just didn't leave enough time, energy, or money for the team to actually use its abilities. ByKolles has pretty much always been a clown show (sorry, but ... )

LMP2 was full of talented ams and fast pros running highly organized teams in some fairly attractive cars at decent pace. it should still be that ... except the cars will be faster.

I don't see where I am losing out so badly here.

Sure, people who have admitted they don't even Like sports car racing any more can invent ridiculous situations which we might not like ... but this sin't a creative writing forum, it is a sports car forum.

Looks to me like LMP2 might actually be just as good or better despite the switch to a limited number of chassis suppliers and a single engine.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Sure, people who have admitted they don't even Like sports car racing any more can invent ridiculous situations which we might not like ... but this sin't a creative writing forum, it is a sports car forum.

Oh for ****.

I'm done. No more. Goodbye.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Looks to me like LMP2 might actually be just as good or better despite the switch to a limited number of chassis suppliers and a single engine.

For a best-case scenario, ACO might relax the restrictions such as increasing the number of chassis suppliers by 5 or 6, as well as having another engine supplier other than Zytek.

For a worst-case scenario, Riley-Multimatic and Dallara would pull out if they're beaten by either Oreca or Onroak (except in North America) in WEC, ELMS, and AsLMS, leaving 2 chassis suppliers remaining.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

For a best-case scenario, ACO might relax the restrictions such as increasing the number of chassis suppliers by 5 or 6, as well as having another engine supplier other than Zytek.

A second engine would be most welcome ... particularly if it wasn't an identical V8 ... but that would cause huger problems because manufacturers would have to redesign the tub and the ducting.

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

For a worst-case scenario, Riley-Multimatic and Dallara would pull out if they're beaten by either Oreca or Onroak (except in North America) in WEC, ELMS, and AsLMS, leaving 2 chassis suppliers remaining.

This is more likely ... the whole field in Oreca and Onroak, with Riley and Dallara selling a couple in the U.S. .... but since Dallara and Riley do have U.S. contracts, they won't stop production, I don't think.

This then leads to the situation where a new chassis-maker would have to try to steal customers from the existing four ... and why would anyone risk going with a new chassis when there were two which were proven successful and two more which were successful overseas?

This leads back to the original issue, where some constructors couldn't sell enough chassis to make a profit, while some were privately funded and ignored cost-caps, and even so the entire field with the exception of SMP and ESM were using something made by Oak or Oreca ... and pretty much everyone was powered by Nissan.

Obviously as fans we want every team (pretty much) to be building its own car and using one of half-a-dozen motors ... but there isn't F1-type money available in P2.

[carbsmith]

Completely remaking the class over homologation issues doesn't seem like a rational response. SMP is an excuse, the car doesn't win anything because the development budget for a single team running their own car sucks compared to a constructor selling as many cars as ORECA. As long as manufacturers are banned from the class it will work that way, there's no more reason to be afraid of new one off cars than WRs and Pilbeams.

Considering the only manufacturers are the ones that were already selling enough cars, another that will probably still only sell 3 cars, and one that wasn't even involved at all before I'm really not sure whose business this is saving. Even with 4 manufacturers ORECA and Onroak could still get crushed by Dallara, having a 3 manufacturer limit sure didn't save anyone in the IRL.

I get what the ACO is getting out of it but I'm not sure why ORECA is so keen on it.

[chernaudi]

So de Chanauc can pocket more money? So to Onroak, even if they weren't a party to this process, they're still benefiting because the ACO, once again, are looking out of French nationalistic interests here.

[Maelochs]

Actually IndyCar only has two manufacturers, and is looking hard for a third ... and that series has gone from being hated even by the fans, to building some real momentum, even using spec cars with glued-on bodywork bits.

On top of that, IndyCar didn't have a top class of multi-million dollar Wundercars to please the fans ... it went with spec cars and two engines, and put on racing good enough to win back the fans and slightly increase TV ratings.

So long as FIA-WEC has P1 and GTE, it can do anything it wants with P2 with no consequence to the series.

As far as Dallara "crushing" Oak and Oreca ... not sure where that somes from. I don't khnow of any dallara sports cars in FIA-WEC, but here in North America the Dallara-Corvette of Wayne Taylor Racing doesn't seem to be "crushing" anyone except Mazda, which is self-crushing anyway.

Seems to me that Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans were won by Dalla---oh, wait, a Ligier, which is actually an Oak, by Onroak.

And also ... ALL IndyCar races are shown Live, in full, on either one broadcast channel (ABC) or one cable channel (NBCSN.) I think IMSA might like such a deal.

Not saying there are direct comparisons ... but IndyCar showed another way to go from being broke and split to making money again.

Let's see how the 2017 FIA-WEC and 2017 WSC seasons play out before we talk about how badly they sucked.

[carbsmith]

My whole point is there is zero guarantee of ORECA selling more cars and therefore making more money. Even with the two SMP cars they lost because of the BR01 SMP might just go buy a Ligier or Dallara. Is trying to make sure that those 4 manufacturers might not lose out on like 4 sales between them over 5 years because of independent cars going to make a difference?

They already dominate the market and can still only continue to dominate the market if they have a better product than Dallara and Multimatic. Ironically Gibson were the winners in this whole thing because they went from having only a couple LMP2 chassis to selling every LMP2 engine.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually IndyCar only has two manufacturers, and is looking hard for a third

In 2003 the IRL approved three chassis constructors, Falcon, G-Force, and Dallara. Falcon never even managed to turn a wheel and G-Force had zero full time cars by 2006. The only way this chassis limit benefits you over not having one is if you can completely run out the competition without any allowance for new competition.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

In 2003 the IRL approved three chassis constructors, Falcon, G-Force, and Dallara. Falcon never even managed to turn a wheel and G-Force had zero full time cars by 2006. The only way this chassis limit benefits you over not having one is if you can completely run out the competition without any allowance for new competition.

That's great ... but now they have one chassis maker and two engine suppliers and are doing pretty well. So ... no clear message that limiting chassis suppliers will or won't help.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

My whole point is there is zero guarantee of ORECA selling more cars and therefore making more money.

None of the chassis makers are guaranteed to sell any cars. And really, there were only two manufacturers plus SMP ... and there is no reason to believe many Euro teams will buy Dallara or Riley.

On the other hand ... we still get the same number of chassis constructors, right?

Also ... Onroak and Oreca can now produce a single set of spare parts. There aren't two or three chassis variations as their were in the past. That will probably up profits marginally.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Ironically Gibson were the winners in this whole thing because they went from having only a couple LMP2 chassis to selling every LMP2 engine.

Yup. Good business move.