"Racing incidents"?

[JohnD]

There is a current thread, on racing etiquette to which I do not refer.

Instead, a previous one, in which people tried to justify the nudge that is so common in BTCC to remove an opponent from the track, or at least from in front of you, and which to the concern of all right thinking racers is oozing into our races too.
I would refer the Court to Wallace and Clements v. Benham, as reported in the Judicial section of the latest, Autumn 2006, "MotorSports NOW!" (the magazine that least lives up to the excitement of its' title).

There, the MSA National Court found that certain track actions by Mr.Benham were "avoidable", refused his appeal and fined him, sorry "ordered him to pay costs of" £500, as well as awarding him six licence points and excluding him from the race. I think that puts 'nudging' in the right perspective - if you meant to hit the other car, it was 'avoidable'.

John

[Chris Griffin]

Glad to hear they are now some taking action John. Just few years ago TOCA / MSA were actively promoting the Championship on the back of the "crash, bang" action on track. I still have the advert that appeared in The Sun somewhere. I complained to MSA about that Ad and had zero response.

[Al Weyman]

I agree and they even had ads on TV not so long ago promoting the same.

Another point on a similiar subject, I notice some accidents although predominatly one mans fault for what ever reason, maybe going off the track and come back on and collecting someone for example, could possibly be avoided if the innocent hapless party just got out the throttle for a second to give the errant car driver a bit of space to sort himself out. I recollect this happening several times at the weekend and I backed off a tad while the autocrossing driver sorted himself out. Maybe I should have just nailed it and took a chance and gone by but hey we are mainly club racers here picking up the tab so at the end of the day it dont matter who is right or wrong your car is still damaged. Great race with dad in the family Rover incidently Chris!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by JohnD

. . . I think that puts 'nudging' in the right perspective - if you meant to hit the other car, it was 'avoidable'.

Great. All we have to do now is get that idea across to the BTCC. I'm not holding my breath.

Regards

Jim

[MGDavid]

Mr Benham is, I gather, not the most popular driver in MGCC circles; let's hope he learns from this.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Another point on a similiar subject, I notice some accidents although predominatly one mans fault for what ever reason, maybe going off the track and come back on and collecting someone for example, could possibly be avoided if the innocent hapless party just got out the throttle for a second to give the errant car driver a bit of space to sort himself out. I recollect this happening several times at the weekend and I backed off a tad while the autocrossing driver sorted himself out. Maybe I should have just nailed it and took a chance and gone by but hey we are mainly club racers here picking up the tab so at the end of the day it dont matter who is right or wrong your car is still damaged.

Conversely, I've seen many examples of a driver going off for one reason or another and madly charging back onto the circuit as quickly as possible without bothering first to regain control of the vehicle or look for a gap in the traffic. Bloody dangerous and rarely anything gets done.

[Al Weyman]

Thats what I mean David, look out for the moron. Its fresh on my mnd because of a very severe crash in the race I was in on Sunday which was basicaly caused by a car going off the track and rejoining the circuit, I only witnessed the aftermath as I started from the back of the grid and the driver of the errant car may have well just been a passenger I really dont know but one guy was hostpitalised and both cars wrecked.

[cannardd]

Sadly people need reminding that circuit racing is supposed to be a non contact sport.
Back in the days of the Honda CRX championship several (if not all) competitors were penalised for fitting metal bars behind the bumper to protect the rad when they "nudged" the car in front...

[Tainan]

Originally Posted by cannardd

Sadly people need reminding that circuit racing is supposed to be a non contact sport.
Back in the days of the Honda CRX championship several (if not all) competitors were penalised for fitting metal bars behind the bumper to protect the rad when they "nudged" the car in front...

Perhaps that's the answer - fit a rearward facing spike to the front bumper of all the touring cars that pierces the rad at the first sign of contact!

[StephenRae]

Originally Posted by Tainan

Perhaps that's the answer - fit a rearward facing spike to the front bumper of all the touring cars that pierces the rad at the first sign of contact!

Less fun, but an ignition kill switch on the front bumper would achieve the same result.

[zac510]

I always thought that a racing incident was something that was 50/50 fault, or something that was unequivocally free of ill intention. An accident in the true sense of the word, not the accident that has come to be the name of a collision.

Not that you'd know it, given the ruthless enthusiasm for punishment by race officials in the top levels of motorsport these days.

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Less fun, but an ignition kill switch on the front bumper would achieve the same result.

[Micky.H]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Its fresh on my mnd because of a very severe crash in the race I was in on Sunday which was basicaly caused by a car going off the track and rejoining the circuit, I only witnessed the aftermath as I started from the back of the grid and the driver of the errant car may have well just been a passenger I really dont know but one guy was hostpitalised and both cars wrecked.

The driver of the errant car WAS just a passenger, there was nothing that he could of done to avoid the incident & there was nothing wrong with his driving techniques.

[GordonG]

I started out in Minicross, where thee is a specific rule that precludes the protection of the (forward facing, vulnerable) distributor with steel guards ets - precisely to discourage "rubbing" as a habbit - the rubber was more likely to suffer a broken dizzy cap and resultant DNF than the rubbee was to come off.

Course, if you did have a kill switch on the front bumper, it would only take a brake test on a following, slipstreaming car to get rid of them... Works both ways.

G

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Micky.H

The driver of the errant car WAS just a passenger, there was nothing that he could of done to avoid the incident & there was nothing wrong with his driving techniques.

I'm really glad to hear that, it knocks you back abit coming across something like that on your first lap, anyhow the good news is I have since heard that thankfully Jason the hospitalised driver of the RS2000 is bruised and battered but out of hospital and OK thank God.

[COLIN STUBBS]

i witnessesd a near similar prang in the tintops at snetterton the other week. 30 odd cars into the first corner and a 40 minute race so you would think a bit of caution wouldnt go a miss,but no.the guy that wanted to be leading at all costs caused a big shunt. luckilly no injuries,but 2 badly damaged cars,lots of us got scrapes and dents,and everyone got ten minutes track time taken away for the delays it caused.

[Al Weyman]

In your opinion Colin, or anyone else here, do you not think rolling starts would help the first lap thing? I personally do especially after being bulked by Tim Scott-Andrew's Rover at the start and although Tim kindly warned me he gets away slowly (only got top in gear in that thing Tim:-)) it was an understatement and I was blocked in and went into Redgate firmly last. Frustration may have caused me to do something silly (it did'nt) but a roller would avert all that.

[Mark Bailey]

In response to rolling starts I do think they are a good idea where you have a mixed and varied grid. Most of the time the entire grid is neatly lined up and performance differences are less apparent as they pass the line. However I’ve done my fair share of rolling starts with capacity grids and there is still plenty of room for the first corner incident.

If the pace car doesn’t do its job correctly the field can be extremely spread out so when the guys at the front are being held on the lights in say second the mid field is accelerating hard to ‘catch up’ and arrive at the front on full power as the front rows get the green. It doesn’t take long till the mid field have cut there way through anything in front of them. This normally happens at places with a chicane before the start line (think Snetterton). Alternatively if a person is in the wrong gear you get a bottle neck and you are four abreast before you know it.

I think in both formats it only takes one person to get something wrong or do something irresponsible and others will suffer. Some times in rolling starts this happens at a quicker speed than a standing one. Like most racing it helps to have some prior experience of the people you race with so you can expect/see any silly moments.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In your opinion Colin, or anyone else here, do you not think rolling starts would help the first lap thing?

There is a strong body of opinion which feels that all rolling starts do is ensure that the first corner incident happens sooner & faster!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In your opinion Colin, or anyone else here, do you not think rolling starts would help the first lap thing? I personally do especially after being bulked by Tim Scott-Andrew's Rover at the start and although Tim kindly warned me he gets away slowly (only got top in gear in that thing Tim:-)) it was an understatement and I was blocked in and went into Redgate firmly last. Frustration may have caused me to do something silly (it did'nt) but a roller would avert all that.

I am personally a fan of rolling starts for 3 reasons. 1. I think they are maginally safer, providing everyone, including the pace car driver, does it 'by the book'. 2. They're mechanically kinder on the car. Of interest to most club racers, I would have thought and definately so for historic competitors and 3. It saves time and frustration forming up a static grid. However, whenever this subject comes up, opinion seem to be divided about 50/50.

[Suze]

That is another argument Dave! Last one I recall seeing with a big grid was DTRC at Brands in April and that seemed to work ok. Do think they should just be used with a large / mixed / varied grid and in very wet conditions when it's very difficult to see - example Vees at Combe in March - if one of the guys near the front hadn't got away much easier for someone fairly back to collect them due to limited visibility, a rolling start may help to prevent this.

And, if the guys don't form properly, they should just be sent round again eg oval style.

[JimW]

Because of the closeness of the last corner to the startline, getting a decent rolling start at Donington is very difficult. (And that applies also to re-starts from behind a Safety Car.)

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Yes I can see that Jim, but would be nice where practical.

[cannardd]

Rolling starts can work very well, but as mentioned earlier they don't work well at Snetterton (Possibly Croft too) unless the lead cars keep the pace slow enough. If the last corner is wide enough for everyone to get through without having to go 'single file' then it is usually ok, providing the leading cars don't just charge flat-out from the corner exit.

They do drastically reduce shock loadings on gearboxes, which can be an important factor in many championships.

[Suze]

One of the last rolling starts I saw was in the IMSA Lites at Road Atlanta where there was a set speed all cars had to be travelling for the rolling start (something says to me it was "only" 45mph but can't recall exactly). This was adhered to properly as believe they'd had an issue at a previous meeting and was stressed time and time again in the drivers' briefings.

[johngee]

[QUOTE=cannardd If the last corner is wide enough for everyone to get through without having to go 'single file' then it is usually ok, providing the leading cars don't just charge flat-out from the corner exit.
[/QUOTE]

One of the most important factors, in both the safety and 'fairness' of rolling starts is that the front row, who after all dictate the pace once the pace car has pulled off, maintain the same speed as the pace car (by that stage probably 40/50 mph) until they cross the start line. In the historic series/championships that I look after, we seem to have got that right and it works well.